4 ms·

This algorithm won't work on music without kick drums while it still has beat.

by hmage 11y ago

betenoire 11y ago
Though the article mentions a low-pass strategy, it doesn't specify anything about needing a kick. There is a lot of frequency overlap between a kick and say toms, snares, so any percussive element should do. And if you have no beat in that range, then you'd probably not use the low-pass strategy described there. I would add that a song must have percussive elements in order to have a "beat" as described by the article. It can have a tempo without a beat (think organ music), but this is called beat detection, not tempo detection.
- stephencanon 11y ago
  > a song must have percussive elements in order to have a "beat" as described by the article. "You can think to the beat of a song as the rythm you tap your foot at while listening to it." By the stated definition, almost all music has a beat, whether or not it has percussive elements.
  - betenoire 11y ago
    a percussive element has little to no attack, and a quick decay. It doesn't have to be drums, you can play a trumpet or flute "percussively". The article also says it's the "beat" that makes you dance. A barbershop quartet can have a beat with just vocals. I'm not disagreeing with what you wrote, just explaining why I think a kick isn't necessary for beat detection, even though it makes it easier.
- smosher_ 11y ago
  Did you even read the article? The article's description of "beat" doesn't conflict with the musical term but yours does. In fact the article even relates beats to tempo and describes the results in terms of tempo. This is about tempo detection. The reason this technique is called "beat detection" is it can be used to collect the individual beats from the stream contrasted with knowing the just the tempo doesn't tell you where the beats are exactly (and doesn't help a lick with finding the off-beats.) Tempo detection is only one product of these algorithms, and guesses can be constructed from any of them, though sometimes additional heuristics are needed. The accuracy of the LPF technique is well worth criticizing. Yes, it's fairly good, but it's not the best one we have and the article says part 2 will describe a better technique. I should note that even organs and vocals can create transients that are often associated with beats. The LPF probably does better simply by eliminating false-positives.
  - betenoire 11y ago
    who the fuck are you arguing with? Yes I read the article, and the linked-to articles within. I've read much more too. I'm simply saying a kick isn't necessary to do beat detection. Would you like to address that point?
CountHackulus 11y ago
This is clearly marked part 1, I'd maybe wait for part 2 before saying that everything is broken.
shabble 11y ago
There are alternatives, such as some of the work done by Masataka Goto in drum-free tempo/beat detection, see [1] for some literature. I haven't kept up with the literature, but his work is quite old now, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were better approaches along similar lines. There's also Beatroot[2] which operates in a similar fashion to the OP described solution, but AIUI more flexible in looking for certain spectral flux signatures in various bands to determine beat onsets. I'm also intrigued by the cliffhanger in the original article posted here - wavelet or other approaches for accuracy/resilience, and so will be looking forward to when it's released. [1] https://staff.aist.go.jp/m.goto/PROJ/bts.html https://staff.aist.go.jp/m.goto/PROJ/bts.html [2] http://www.eecs.qmul.ac.uk/~simond/beatroot/ http://www.eecs.qmul.ac.uk/~simond/beatroot/

This algorithm won't work on music without kick drums while it still has beat.

by hmage 11y ago

This algorithm won't work on music without kick drums while it still has beat.

Though the article mentions a low-pass strategy, it doesn't specify anything about needing a kick. There is a lot of frequency overlap between a kick and say toms, snares, so any percussive element should do. And if you have no beat in that range, then you'd probably not use the low-pass strategy described there. I would add that a song must have percussive elements in order to have a "beat" as described by the article. It can have a tempo without a beat (think organ music), but this is called beat detection, not tempo detection.

stephencanon 11y ago
> a song must have percussive elements in order to have a "beat" as described by the article. "You can think to the beat of a song as the rythm you tap your foot at while listening to it." By the stated definition, almost all music has a beat, whether or not it has percussive elements.
- betenoire 11y ago
  a percussive element has little to no attack, and a quick decay. It doesn't have to be drums, you can play a trumpet or flute "percussively". The article also says it's the "beat" that makes you dance. A barbershop quartet can have a beat with just vocals. I'm not disagreeing with what you wrote, just explaining why I think a kick isn't necessary for beat detection, even though it makes it easier.
smosher_ 11y ago
Did you even read the article? The article's description of "beat" doesn't conflict with the musical term but yours does. In fact the article even relates beats to tempo and describes the results in terms of tempo. This is about tempo detection. The reason this technique is called "beat detection" is it can be used to collect the individual beats from the stream contrasted with knowing the just the tempo doesn't tell you where the beats are exactly (and doesn't help a lick with finding the off-beats.) Tempo detection is only one product of these algorithms, and guesses can be constructed from any of them, though sometimes additional heuristics are needed. The accuracy of the LPF technique is well worth criticizing. Yes, it's fairly good, but it's not the best one we have and the article says part 2 will describe a better technique. I should note that even organs and vocals can create transients that are often associated with beats. The LPF probably does better simply by eliminating false-positives.
- betenoire 11y ago
  who the fuck are you arguing with? Yes I read the article, and the linked-to articles within. I've read much more too. I'm simply saying a kick isn't necessary to do beat detection. Would you like to address that point?

CountHackulus 11y ago

This is clearly marked part 1, I'd maybe wait for part 2 before saying that everything is broken.

shabble 11y ago

There are alternatives, such as some of the work done by Masataka Goto in drum-free tempo/beat detection, see [1] for some literature. I haven't kept up with the literature, but his work is quite old now, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were better approaches along similar lines. There's also Beatroot[2] which operates in a similar fashion to the OP described solution, but AIUI more flexible in looking for certain spectral flux signatures in various bands to determine beat onsets. I'm also intrigued by the cliffhanger in the original article posted here - wavelet or other approaches for accuracy/resilience, and so will be looking forward to when it's released. [1] https://staff.aist.go.jp/m.goto/PROJ/bts.html https://staff.aist.go.jp/m.goto/PROJ/bts.html [2] http://www.eecs.qmul.ac.uk/~simond/beatroot/ http://www.eecs.qmul.ac.uk/~simond/beatroot/