4 ms·

I'm ashamed I'm french... How can one think "let's start a fake company" instead of asking real companies to train these people for real? and for free... How i

I'm ashamed I'm french... How can one think "let's start a fake company" instead of asking real companies to train these people for real? and for free... How is it OK to work for a fake company, but it's bad to work for free for a real company and gain some real experience... How come?

bryanlarsen 11y ago
Because that's exploitation and unfair competition. Imagine company A uses this program for a significant fraction of its workers. The government is paying the wages for its workers so it can afford to lower it's prices. This puts company B out of business because it can't. Now we have twice as many workers on unemployment...
- weddpros 11y ago
  Then limit the program to a non significant fraction of its workers and a limited time, and a limited number of such programs per year. That's very easy to verify and enforce...
pkaye 11y ago
There might be laws preventing working for free for a real company. Or maybe unions are opposed because it may depress their wages?
- weddpros 11y ago
  There are definitely such laws. There's even a minimum wage for interns in France (800€/m, which is about 80% of the legal minimum salary). And unions in France would definitely be opposed to it... because they're opposed to any change. But I think they could make it work...
  - m_t 11y ago
    The minimum is a bit less thank that I think. You can see here[1] an example of the gratification for a full time (7h a day) intern ship of 4 months. The pay per month is ~500€ [1] http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprises/F32131.xhtml http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprise...
seszett 11y ago
> How is it OK to work for a fake company, but it's bad to work for free for a real company and gain some real experience... How come? These people are unemployed, right? What if you let a company hire them for free? Let's see... 1. company has one paid secretary 2. company hires free secretary 3. company lays off paid secretary because the free one is cheaper 4. previously paid secretary is now unemployed 5. previously paid secretary gets hired for free by company 2 You KNOW this is what would happen. Don't even start about how companies autoregulate themselves and how the market will punish bad behaviour and how employees can simply choose to work for a better one or whatever. These things are wishful thinking.
- weddpros 11y ago
  Then enforce good manners and sound business practice. And restrict the extent of this program, both in numbers and time. Also limit this program to companies that need it most (could not hire otherwise).
- stephengillie 11y ago
  This is what happens with unpaid internships?
  - seszett 11y ago
    In a limited way, yes, that's why unpaid internships are now limited to two months as far as I know. Even then low paid, longer, internships still do displace legitimate jobs to some extent. As I said, good manners and sound business practice are wishful thinking at best.
    - weddpros 11y ago
      Limiting this kind of program to startups could help. Limiting to certain jobs and job levels too (I guess the fake companies don't "employ" PhDs in compsci either). It's not my job to make it work or make it right. But tossing the idea altogether is rather radical.
weddpros 11y ago
Of course, they could also help create real companies. For a limited time, and a limited number of "employees". Also note that this implies a serious investment from the company too: they have to train these employees... which they may actually choose to keep onboard after the program's end.

bryanlarsen 11y ago

Because that's exploitation and unfair competition. Imagine company A uses this program for a significant fraction of its workers. The government is paying the wages for its workers so it can afford to lower it's prices. This puts company B out of business because it can't. Now we have twice as many workers on unemployment...

weddpros 11y ago
Then limit the program to a non significant fraction of its workers and a limited time, and a limited number of such programs per year. That's very easy to verify and enforce...

pkaye 11y ago

There might be laws preventing working for free for a real company. Or maybe unions are opposed because it may depress their wages?

weddpros 11y ago
There are definitely such laws. There's even a minimum wage for interns in France (800€/m, which is about 80% of the legal minimum salary). And unions in France would definitely be opposed to it... because they're opposed to any change. But I think they could make it work...
- m_t 11y ago
  The minimum is a bit less thank that I think. You can see here[1] an example of the gratification for a full time (7h a day) intern ship of 4 months. The pay per month is ~500€ [1] http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprises/F32131.xhtml http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprise...

seszett 11y ago

> How is it OK to work for a fake company, but it's bad to work for free for a real company and gain some real experience... How come? These people are unemployed, right? What if you let a company hire them for free? Let's see... 1. company has one paid secretary 2. company hires free secretary 3. company lays off paid secretary because the free one is cheaper 4. previously paid secretary is now unemployed 5. previously paid secretary gets hired for free by company 2 You KNOW this is what would happen. Don't even start about how companies autoregulate themselves and how the market will punish bad behaviour and how employees can simply choose to work for a better one or whatever. These things are wishful thinking.

weddpros 11y ago
Then enforce good manners and sound business practice. And restrict the extent of this program, both in numbers and time. Also limit this program to companies that need it most (could not hire otherwise).
stephengillie 11y ago
This is what happens with unpaid internships?
- seszett 11y ago
  In a limited way, yes, that's why unpaid internships are now limited to two months as far as I know. Even then low paid, longer, internships still do displace legitimate jobs to some extent. As I said, good manners and sound business practice are wishful thinking at best.
  - weddpros 11y ago
    Limiting this kind of program to startups could help. Limiting to certain jobs and job levels too (I guess the fake companies don't "employ" PhDs in compsci either). It's not my job to make it work or make it right. But tossing the idea altogether is rather radical.

weddpros 11y ago

Of course, they could also help create real companies. For a limited time, and a limited number of "employees". Also note that this implies a serious investment from the company too: they have to train these employees... which they may actually choose to keep onboard after the program's end.