5 ms·

MIT cuts ties with Walter Lewin after online harassment probe

14 points by akbarnama 11y ago

baldfat 11y ago
Taking down the videos does seem a harsh response, but I guess cutting all ties to Dr Walter Lewin means nothing of his can be hosted on anything that is owned by MIT. Does feel a little like a book burning, but I get why they cut ties with him.
- jessriedel 11y ago
  > I guess cutting all ties to Dr Walter Lewin means nothing of his can be hosted on anything that is owned by MIT. This really doesn't logically follow. It's perfectly reasonable for a university to, say, host a video-taped panel discussion with folks who have committed crimes, or publish a book by someone with immoral views. The defense of taking down these courses is ostensibly based on the idea that they need to prevent new bad behavior from taking place, i.e., that the on-going courses actually represent a danger. > MIT says it removed Lewin videos for fear of continued harassment But of course, there is almost certainly a way to do that while preserving the course material. Here are Scott Aaronson's thoughts: http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2091 http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2091 As the comments allude to, MIT keeps copies of Mein Kampft in their library. It doesn't mean they endorse the work.
  - moomin 11y ago
    Yes, but it's course material that sets him up in a position of authority. It's fine for people to study Nazi-ism, but people would probably question MIT if Joseph Goebbels were giving the lectures. TL;DR; context matters, he's not a unique snowflake the sum of human knowledge hasn't been impacted.
    - jessriedel 11y ago
      > people would probably question MIT if Joseph Goebbels were giving the lectures. If Joseph Goebbels had something useful to say that would add to the intellectual discussion, then MIT should host him. This could be him trying to defend himself, or it could just be him lecturing on a topic completely unrelated to his horrific views. Some people would surely strongly object, but they would be wrong.
      - dalke 11y ago
        I have something to say which I think would add to the intellectual discussion. Should MIT host my comments? In any case, there's no need to reach towards Nazis - plenty of people protested when the war criminal Kissinger wanted to teach at Columbia. See https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1350&dat=19771108&id=0gpPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XwIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2888,5024985&hl=en https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1350&dat=19771108&id=... for example, where he made it in to Georgetown but mention that 135 faculty and 1,000 students at Columbia "registered their disapproval and Mr. Kissinger withdrew from the negotiations."
        jessriedel 11y ago
        > I have something to say which I think would add to the intellectual discussion. Should MIT host my comments? It doesn't matter whether you think you would add to the intellectual discussion, it matter whether MIT think so. > In any case, there's no need to reach towards Nazis Agreed. There are many real life cases. There are lots of things that go into who you should hire as a professor (which is obviously distinct from who you should host for a discussion), but there mere fact that a bunch of people registered their disapproval doesn't much speak to them.
  - baldfat 11y ago
    The logic is that having the Videos and Lectures it is than seen that students would seek out Dr Walter Lewin for help in a healthy student - teacher relationship which Dr Lewin has shown to have to engage in unhealthy relationships.
    - jessriedel 11y ago
      But you can make this argument about hosting content from any immoral public figure who's not dead. "I saw a talk by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, so I sought him out to ask a follow-up question." The danger of the student-teacher relationship is that the teacher has administrative power over the student in terms of grading, recommendations, etc. That's what has to be eliminated, by removing him as a professor. On the other hand, you're just arguing that, as a former teacher, he would be source of knowledge or an intellectual authority that a student would seek. But that possibility exists for any unpalatable intellectual. Would MIT not publish a textbook by an immoral teacher because a reader might seek them out? Etc.
      - dalke 11y ago
        This is a clear case of free association. MIT does not wish to have any association with Lewin, and has no obligation to host Lewin's lectures on its public-facing web servers. While you might believe there is a free speech issue, we know that the materials are available from other sites which aggregate free lectures. The MIT library also has many materials which are available to on-site visitors which are not available on the web site - it may well be that these lectures are still available to the public via that mechanism. Remember, free speech does not obligate organizations to use all possible means to disseminate information, but is foremost a prohibition on government restraint on speech. In the US Constitution's First Amendment, free speech is on par with free association. Your hypothetical is incomplete or misdirected. We know details from news reports like https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/01/23/complainant-unprecedented-walter-lewin-sexual-harassment-case-comes-forward https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/01/23/complainant-u... that it is not the case that students contacted Lewin but the opposite - Lewin actively sought out many women who were self-learning using his videos, including joining in with Facebook groups. In addition, Ahmadinejad is not a professor at MIT, nor are interactions with him covered under Title IX. Quite clearly MIT will not publish a textbook by Lewin should he decide to write one, so the answer to your final question is "yes". Again, this is a free association question. If no publisher is willing to take on the book, nor any web hosting company, nor other organization, then it might be a free speech issue. But that is not the case for this specific example. Presumably Ahmadinejad is also able to publish a book through any number of mechanisms, and not limited to the MIT Press.
dalke 11y ago
That was 6 months ago. There was plenty of discussion about it https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8720064 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8720064 and this specific link was posted already at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8721987 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8721987. Since that time, there was also a link to "Complainant in 'unprecedented' Walter Lewin sexual harassment case comes forward" at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8937683 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8937683 and "More details on the Walter Lewin case" at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9384745 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9384745 .

14 points by akbarnama 11y ago

Taking down the videos does seem a harsh response, but I guess cutting all ties to Dr Walter Lewin means nothing of his can be hosted on anything that is owned by MIT. Does feel a little like a book burning, but I get why they cut ties with him.

jessriedel 11y ago
> I guess cutting all ties to Dr Walter Lewin means nothing of his can be hosted on anything that is owned by MIT. This really doesn't logically follow. It's perfectly reasonable for a university to, say, host a video-taped panel discussion with folks who have committed crimes, or publish a book by someone with immoral views. The defense of taking down these courses is ostensibly based on the idea that they need to prevent new bad behavior from taking place, i.e., that the on-going courses actually represent a danger. > MIT says it removed Lewin videos for fear of continued harassment But of course, there is almost certainly a way to do that while preserving the course material. Here are Scott Aaronson's thoughts: http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2091 http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2091 As the comments allude to, MIT keeps copies of Mein Kampft in their library. It doesn't mean they endorse the work.
- moomin 11y ago
  Yes, but it's course material that sets him up in a position of authority. It's fine for people to study Nazi-ism, but people would probably question MIT if Joseph Goebbels were giving the lectures. TL;DR; context matters, he's not a unique snowflake the sum of human knowledge hasn't been impacted.
  - jessriedel 11y ago
    > people would probably question MIT if Joseph Goebbels were giving the lectures. If Joseph Goebbels had something useful to say that would add to the intellectual discussion, then MIT should host him. This could be him trying to defend himself, or it could just be him lecturing on a topic completely unrelated to his horrific views. Some people would surely strongly object, but they would be wrong.
    - dalke 11y ago
      I have something to say which I think would add to the intellectual discussion. Should MIT host my comments? In any case, there's no need to reach towards Nazis - plenty of people protested when the war criminal Kissinger wanted to teach at Columbia. See https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1350&dat=19771108&id=0gpPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XwIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2888,5024985&hl=en https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1350&dat=19771108&id=... for example, where he made it in to Georgetown but mention that 135 faculty and 1,000 students at Columbia "registered their disapproval and Mr. Kissinger withdrew from the negotiations."
      - jessriedel 11y ago
        > I have something to say which I think would add to the intellectual discussion. Should MIT host my comments? It doesn't matter whether you think you would add to the intellectual discussion, it matter whether MIT think so. > In any case, there's no need to reach towards Nazis Agreed. There are many real life cases. There are lots of things that go into who you should hire as a professor (which is obviously distinct from who you should host for a discussion), but there mere fact that a bunch of people registered their disapproval doesn't much speak to them.
- baldfat 11y ago
  The logic is that having the Videos and Lectures it is than seen that students would seek out Dr Walter Lewin for help in a healthy student - teacher relationship which Dr Lewin has shown to have to engage in unhealthy relationships.
  - jessriedel 11y ago
    But you can make this argument about hosting content from any immoral public figure who's not dead. "I saw a talk by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, so I sought him out to ask a follow-up question." The danger of the student-teacher relationship is that the teacher has administrative power over the student in terms of grading, recommendations, etc. That's what has to be eliminated, by removing him as a professor. On the other hand, you're just arguing that, as a former teacher, he would be source of knowledge or an intellectual authority that a student would seek. But that possibility exists for any unpalatable intellectual. Would MIT not publish a textbook by an immoral teacher because a reader might seek them out? Etc.
    - dalke 11y ago
      This is a clear case of free association. MIT does not wish to have any association with Lewin, and has no obligation to host Lewin's lectures on its public-facing web servers. While you might believe there is a free speech issue, we know that the materials are available from other sites which aggregate free lectures. The MIT library also has many materials which are available to on-site visitors which are not available on the web site - it may well be that these lectures are still available to the public via that mechanism. Remember, free speech does not obligate organizations to use all possible means to disseminate information, but is foremost a prohibition on government restraint on speech. In the US Constitution's First Amendment, free speech is on par with free association. Your hypothetical is incomplete or misdirected. We know details from news reports like https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/01/23/complainant-unprecedented-walter-lewin-sexual-harassment-case-comes-forward https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/01/23/complainant-u... that it is not the case that students contacted Lewin but the opposite - Lewin actively sought out many women who were self-learning using his videos, including joining in with Facebook groups. In addition, Ahmadinejad is not a professor at MIT, nor are interactions with him covered under Title IX. Quite clearly MIT will not publish a textbook by Lewin should he decide to write one, so the answer to your final question is "yes". Again, this is a free association question. If no publisher is willing to take on the book, nor any web hosting company, nor other organization, then it might be a free speech issue. But that is not the case for this specific example. Presumably Ahmadinejad is also able to publish a book through any number of mechanisms, and not limited to the MIT Press.

dalke 11y ago

That was 6 months ago. There was plenty of discussion about it https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8720064 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8720064 and this specific link was posted already at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8721987 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8721987. Since that time, there was also a link to "Complainant in 'unprecedented' Walter Lewin sexual harassment case comes forward" at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8937683 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8937683 and "More details on the Walter Lewin case" at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9384745 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9384745 .