6 ms·

Try working with the occult for a year. Specifically chaos magic. It focuses on using science to verify and disqualify claims and what can be done, given that y

by kefka 11y ago

Try working with the occult for a year. Specifically chaos magic. It focuses on using science to verify and disqualify claims and what can be done, given that your sample size is inherently 1; yourself. There's something there, that's for sure. Don't believe me? You don't have to. Try it out yourself.

digi_owl 11y ago
How do one account for placebo in all that? It seems to walk willingly into the traps that double blind testing is set up to avoid.
- kefka 11y ago
  There really is no good answer to your question. You'd have to go down that path and experience it for yourself. Or you could trust someone else who is sensitive to these things... but you'll be in the same boat.
  - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
    Or in other words, it's the placebo effect. Bugger, I was hoping it called upon the Golden Lord of Darkness who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos, the Lord of Nightmares who made the Four Worlds, and could destroy our entire plane of existence. Oh, no wait, that's "chaos magic" from an anime series, in which there's actually such a thing as "chaos magic".
    - krapp 11y ago
      To play Devil's advocate for no good reason - the placebo effect can be quite powerful. Maybe not "Shoggoth make me a sandwich" powerful, but still.
    - stelonix 11y ago
      Even if you call "the placebo effect" what we call "magic", what he's trying to tell you is to try it yourself as opposed to just dismiss it based on nowadays views of the occult. You might wonder "Why would I do that? Science has all the answers, everything that is can be observed, therefore magic is bollocks!" and you're completely entitled to think that, but it's my belief that dismissing other world views simply because someone else told you so is kind of naive. "Chaos magic" and any other type of faith-based system will require you to take that leap in order for it to work (as it did for Alan Moore, as another comment mentioned). If you don't want to because you don't want to embarrass yourself for trying some "wacky voodoo", it's alright, but again, as much as the world is increasingly secular and atheist it's still nice to respect other people's belief systems. What works for you might not work for them and viceversa. There's no need to demean beliefs if they do not affect you in any way and even if they do, I'd go as far as saying to start attacking them when they harm you in profound ways. If you do try, though, hope it works out for you, it's a nice ride that gives understanding to many things including awareness/consciousness.
- dghf 11y ago
  Alan Moore (he of Watchmen fame) invokes the Roman god Glycon in ceremonial magic, even though he knows Glycon was exposed as a sock puppet in the second century. Nonetheless, the magic works (for certain values, presumably ones meaningful to Mr Moore, of "works").
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    Well Moore is a character at best of times.
    - dghf 11y ago
      He certainly is. I like his story of how he's actually met John Constantine, twice. I'm almost jealous of his, erm, idiosyncratic perception of the world.
      - digi_owl 11y ago
        there are times i wonder if there is something on the water on that island, as there are number of people living there with some "interesting" takes on existence.
        dghf 11y ago
        It's the tea. It sends us all bonkers in the end.
code_reuse 11y ago
To me, just thinking philosophically about what you described, it sounds problematic even in your best case wouldn't you agree ? I mean lets say that you do somehow manage to convince your rational scientific mind that "there's something there". Now what ? Wouldn't you then be stuck in the awkward position of engaging mysterious potentencies which impact your life but who's fundamental operations seem utterly mysterious to you ? To me, philosophically speaking, that sounds like a recipe for disaster. The analogy that spring to mind is a tourist onboard a nuclear submarine who is jabbing his finger wildly at the controls without knowing what any of the buttons and levers do. I mean it sounds like good fun if thrill seeking is your cup of tea, and I can see how it might be possible to convince yourself there's "something there", but yet it's an inherently risky proposition is it not ?
iak8god 11y ago
I don't have any belief in the supernatural, but this suggestion intrigues me. Can you suggest an intro at the level of "Chaos Magic for Dummies"?
- kefka 11y ago
  My apologies: I just saw your request. You also don't have an email published so I'm not able to send it to you directly. I would heartily recommend Liber Null and Psychonaut. You may choose to buy it via Amazon, but below is the ebook download (multiple formats). https://archive.org/details/LiberNullAndThePsychonaut https://archive.org/details/LiberNullAndThePsychonaut Please know that most of your change will happen inwards at first. Your goal is to control yourself before anything else. From there, you will learn how to control your environment. And your ethics will be challenged. Many people go crazy with this power, in what we call magus-itis. Read more about it here: http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usks&c=words&id=10832 http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usks&c=words&id=1083... How is this useful: You will learn about yourself. You'll learn how to meditate, as well as how to use all 5 of your senses completely. If you wish to stop, stop. Nothing bad happens. Later on, when discussing things that aren't viewed, it does take some belief that they are happening. Things get weird when other people sense your 'hallucinations'. Do they, or do they not exist? I can't tell you. It's your path. Historical: Many of the older spellcasting books since the 1700's used the name Liber [Something] as to denote it was a craft book. The 1700's through 1900 books were more of demonolatry and satanic worship. Think of them as mainly anti-Christian books of magic. There are other books outside this realm, but if you're interested, you'll find them soon enough.

by kefka 11y ago

digi_owl 11y ago

How do one account for placebo in all that? It seems to walk willingly into the traps that double blind testing is set up to avoid.

kefka 11y ago
There really is no good answer to your question. You'd have to go down that path and experience it for yourself. Or you could trust someone else who is sensitive to these things... but you'll be in the same boat.
- eli_gottlieb 11y ago
  Or in other words, it's the placebo effect. Bugger, I was hoping it called upon the Golden Lord of Darkness who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos, the Lord of Nightmares who made the Four Worlds, and could destroy our entire plane of existence. Oh, no wait, that's "chaos magic" from an anime series, in which there's actually such a thing as "chaos magic".
  - krapp 11y ago
    To play Devil's advocate for no good reason - the placebo effect can be quite powerful. Maybe not "Shoggoth make me a sandwich" powerful, but still.
  - stelonix 11y ago
    Even if you call "the placebo effect" what we call "magic", what he's trying to tell you is to try it yourself as opposed to just dismiss it based on nowadays views of the occult. You might wonder "Why would I do that? Science has all the answers, everything that is can be observed, therefore magic is bollocks!" and you're completely entitled to think that, but it's my belief that dismissing other world views simply because someone else told you so is kind of naive. "Chaos magic" and any other type of faith-based system will require you to take that leap in order for it to work (as it did for Alan Moore, as another comment mentioned). If you don't want to because you don't want to embarrass yourself for trying some "wacky voodoo", it's alright, but again, as much as the world is increasingly secular and atheist it's still nice to respect other people's belief systems. What works for you might not work for them and viceversa. There's no need to demean beliefs if they do not affect you in any way and even if they do, I'd go as far as saying to start attacking them when they harm you in profound ways. If you do try, though, hope it works out for you, it's a nice ride that gives understanding to many things including awareness/consciousness.
dghf 11y ago
Alan Moore (he of Watchmen fame) invokes the Roman god Glycon in ceremonial magic, even though he knows Glycon was exposed as a sock puppet in the second century. Nonetheless, the magic works (for certain values, presumably ones meaningful to Mr Moore, of "works").
- digi_owl 11y ago
  Well Moore is a character at best of times.
  - dghf 11y ago
    He certainly is. I like his story of how he's actually met John Constantine, twice. I'm almost jealous of his, erm, idiosyncratic perception of the world.
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      there are times i wonder if there is something on the water on that island, as there are number of people living there with some "interesting" takes on existence.
      - dghf 11y ago
        It's the tea. It sends us all bonkers in the end.

code_reuse 11y ago

To me, just thinking philosophically about what you described, it sounds problematic even in your best case wouldn't you agree ? I mean lets say that you do somehow manage to convince your rational scientific mind that "there's something there". Now what ? Wouldn't you then be stuck in the awkward position of engaging mysterious potentencies which impact your life but who's fundamental operations seem utterly mysterious to you ? To me, philosophically speaking, that sounds like a recipe for disaster. The analogy that spring to mind is a tourist onboard a nuclear submarine who is jabbing his finger wildly at the controls without knowing what any of the buttons and levers do. I mean it sounds like good fun if thrill seeking is your cup of tea, and I can see how it might be possible to convince yourself there's "something there", but yet it's an inherently risky proposition is it not ?

iak8god 11y ago

I don't have any belief in the supernatural, but this suggestion intrigues me. Can you suggest an intro at the level of "Chaos Magic for Dummies"?

kefka 11y ago
My apologies: I just saw your request. You also don't have an email published so I'm not able to send it to you directly. I would heartily recommend Liber Null and Psychonaut. You may choose to buy it via Amazon, but below is the ebook download (multiple formats). https://archive.org/details/LiberNullAndThePsychonaut https://archive.org/details/LiberNullAndThePsychonaut Please know that most of your change will happen inwards at first. Your goal is to control yourself before anything else. From there, you will learn how to control your environment. And your ethics will be challenged. Many people go crazy with this power, in what we call magus-itis. Read more about it here: http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usks&c=words&id=10832 http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usks&c=words&id=1083... How is this useful: You will learn about yourself. You'll learn how to meditate, as well as how to use all 5 of your senses completely. If you wish to stop, stop. Nothing bad happens. Later on, when discussing things that aren't viewed, it does take some belief that they are happening. Things get weird when other people sense your 'hallucinations'. Do they, or do they not exist? I can't tell you. It's your path. Historical: Many of the older spellcasting books since the 1700's used the name Liber [Something] as to denote it was a craft book. The 1700's through 1900 books were more of demonolatry and satanic worship. Think of them as mainly anti-Christian books of magic. There are other books outside this realm, but if you're interested, you'll find them soon enough.