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What is disturbing, and what state are you referring to? Jaynes' theory is more aptly described as fringe science, something far from the mainstream but withou

What is disturbing, and what state are you referring to? Jaynes' theory is more aptly described as fringe science, something far from the mainstream but without any of the obvious shortcomings of "crackpottery". Personally I am a bit surprised by how most people are so dismissive of his theory. We really understand very little about consciousness and the human mind, and there's no archeological evidence that falsifies his theory, rather, it seems to provide support. > saying everyone back then was 100% schizoid [...], and could be fixed with a few pills (in theory, anyways). Not in theory and not in practice either. Psychiatry attempts to make symptoms go away, and we understand very little about how it does so. We know about neurotransmitters and genes that are implicated, but we don't have much more than such correlations. I think it's possible that everyone back then was 100% hearing voices and that it was adaptive at the time.

dragontamer 11y ago
Ancient Sumerians had battle-tactics and formations around 3000 BC. Which suggest that the soldiers of Bronze-Age Sumeria were _professional_ soldiers. Their Lapis Lazuli mosaics have stood the test of time, and we can see these artifacts 5000 years later. Sumerians were a society, a true civilization with specialized jobs, training, and technology. You can't have battle tactics without the "conscious" year long practice with your kinsmen. We may not know what the Acient Sumerian's battle tactics were exactly (those artists weren't exactly... good... at drawing what they saw). But we know that they had formations, and it sorta looked like a Phalanx. (Big Shield + Spear with everyone lined up) ------------ Another obvious "consciousness" bit is the Code of Hammurabi. Dated to 1754 BC (or roughly 4000 years ago), it demonstrates that the ancient Babylonians did in fact have law. Kind-of-crappy law, but its law nonetheless. The Code of Hammurabi assigned justice to slanderers, thieves and murderers.
- the_af 11y ago
  > "Another obvious "consciousness" bit is the Code of Hammurabi. Dated to 1754 BC (or roughly 4000 years ago), it demonstrates that the ancient Babylonians did in fact have law." I recommend you read Jaynes' book, because it specifically addresses this. There is an entire chapter devoted to Hammurabi and his laws. If I remember correctly, he argues quite convincingly that Babylonians were indeed bicameral (surprisingly, in Jaynes' theory you don't need conscience to have laws, and the hallucinated words of your chieftain were the first "laws", which later gave way to the "voices of the gods"). I think according to Jaynes, Babylonia was already stretching it and bicameralism was starting to break down when meeting other civilizations. War is possible and even likely between smallish bicameral cultures; complex trade relations are way more difficult. Jaynes' definition of "conscience" is quite technical, mind you. To him it's a relatively sparse act of "narrative introspection". I totally buy that you don't need conscience at all for the most part of your life! You don't need conscience to act, or even learn in some cases! I think Jaynes was a crackpot. But his theory is a fascinating read nonetheless.
- nitrogen 11y ago
  Sumerians were a society, a true civilization with specialized jobs, training, and technology. You can't have battle tactics without the "conscious" year long practice with your kinsmen. While interesting, this doesn't provide adequate refutation of the idea of late-emerging consciousness. Ants, flocks of birds, and packs of wolves are all capable of cooperative, specialized behavior, and we don't generally think of them as being self-aware.

dragontamer 11y ago

Ancient Sumerians had battle-tactics and formations around 3000 BC. Which suggest that the soldiers of Bronze-Age Sumeria were _professional_ soldiers. Their Lapis Lazuli mosaics have stood the test of time, and we can see these artifacts 5000 years later. Sumerians were a society, a true civilization with specialized jobs, training, and technology. You can't have battle tactics without the "conscious" year long practice with your kinsmen. We may not know what the Acient Sumerian's battle tactics were exactly (those artists weren't exactly... good... at drawing what they saw). But we know that they had formations, and it sorta looked like a Phalanx. (Big Shield + Spear with everyone lined up) ------------ Another obvious "consciousness" bit is the Code of Hammurabi. Dated to 1754 BC (or roughly 4000 years ago), it demonstrates that the ancient Babylonians did in fact have law. Kind-of-crappy law, but its law nonetheless. The Code of Hammurabi assigned justice to slanderers, thieves and murderers.

the_af 11y ago
> "Another obvious "consciousness" bit is the Code of Hammurabi. Dated to 1754 BC (or roughly 4000 years ago), it demonstrates that the ancient Babylonians did in fact have law." I recommend you read Jaynes' book, because it specifically addresses this. There is an entire chapter devoted to Hammurabi and his laws. If I remember correctly, he argues quite convincingly that Babylonians were indeed bicameral (surprisingly, in Jaynes' theory you don't need conscience to have laws, and the hallucinated words of your chieftain were the first "laws", which later gave way to the "voices of the gods"). I think according to Jaynes, Babylonia was already stretching it and bicameralism was starting to break down when meeting other civilizations. War is possible and even likely between smallish bicameral cultures; complex trade relations are way more difficult. Jaynes' definition of "conscience" is quite technical, mind you. To him it's a relatively sparse act of "narrative introspection". I totally buy that you don't need conscience at all for the most part of your life! You don't need conscience to act, or even learn in some cases! I think Jaynes was a crackpot. But his theory is a fascinating read nonetheless.
nitrogen 11y ago
Sumerians were a society, a true civilization with specialized jobs, training, and technology. You can't have battle tactics without the "conscious" year long practice with your kinsmen. While interesting, this doesn't provide adequate refutation of the idea of late-emerging consciousness. Ants, flocks of birds, and packs of wolves are all capable of cooperative, specialized behavior, and we don't generally think of them as being self-aware.