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My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India

56 points by sridca 11y ago

jphilip147 11y ago
good read it is.
g960 11y ago
Are you telling me that you aren't molested in your workplace everyday ? I was made to believe that all Indians are bred as little monsters in the cauldron of a rampant "rape culture". I'm completely confused having read this post, esp after a similar one on the US appeared last on HN, https://medium.com/@katylevinson/sexism-in-tech-don-t-ask-me-unless-you-re-ready-to-call-somebody-a-whistleblower-e5d545e547b0 https://medium.com/@katylevinson/sexism-in-tech-don-t-ask-me... See, it's even on Broadway! http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/28/theater/review-nirbhaya-a-lamentation-and-a-rallying-cry-for-indian-women.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/28/theater/review-nirbhaya-a-... (sarcasm).
- dijit 11y ago
  I have an unpopular opinion on the types of people who keep harping on about sexism in tech. And I'm not in a position to say it doesn't exist- (being a white guy and full of privilege), however it does seem that a lot of girls in tech are making a career of painting all other engineers as being inherently misogynistic, vacuous or malicious. I mean, I don't believe we should put barriers up for women who want to be in tech, I have a few female colleagues who work in this field and they're brilliant.. but making an entire career out of getting more diversity into the technology is strange to me. If I saw people being exclusionary then this would have merit.. but the females I know are embraced (not especially more than men, admittedly, usually the same). We're at a strange time where 90% of occasions I find a new engineer/hacker/programmer to follow on twitter, I have to check that they're not total social justice people, and it's overwhelmingly female techs that simply stop posting anything interesting technologically and start posting news articles about how we're all women hating or suppressing feminist views for not turning all characters in games into women immune from taking damage. (shitty example, I'm ranting, sorry) I think it's very popular to be a social justice kind of person, who can say no to equality! but maybe people are using it to identify themselves too much. --- in regards to the author of this piece, I would surmise that India is inherently more sexist than the US (given what my Indian friend says about the crime rate against women in India), therefore the expectations to be treated better than men in STEM fields doesn't exist? Not sure. And I don't really have enough knowledge to explain any disparity between the two.
  - g960 11y ago
    I don't know if you read the (sarcasm) at the end. I find it ironic that while you shower self-pity when it comes to the US but paint India black anyway. India infact has a lower crime rate against women than the US (even after accounting for differences in reporting rates). Delhi comes out being "safer" than D.C; South India is apparently much safer (author appears to be from Chennai?). I'm given to believe that things are nowhere near as egregious as the Katy Levinson case. I read of this hilarious fact about insurance murders in NYC apparently being more in number than all the "Dowry"/Harassment cases which are so widely promulgated. http://www.amazon.com/Dowry-Murder-Imperial-Origins-Cultural/dp/0195150724 http://www.amazon.com/Dowry-Murder-Imperial-Origins-Cultural... Go figure. Don't believe the self-hating hindu.
    - dijit 11y ago
      I'm not American. Actually, my experience with crime rates is that where crime is common it goes unreported. I come from a city in Britain which has a very strong crime culture, but it's never reported. I imagine if you get raped by your uncle, and so does your friend, and your friend has reported it before and nothing happened- you'd be dissuaded from reporting it too. but I digress. I don't have a particularly objective opinion on India honestly, I have a sum total of 3 friends who openly talk about culture their (and only 1 who still lives there), while on the other hand I'm bathed in American culture- I read their books, stories, blogs, consume their movies. Not to mention the countless friends I have who still live there and openly talk about society. I can only talk about the US, I'm not qualified to understand everything about India unfortunately. Please take everything I said on the last line with a pinch of salt.
      - g960 11y ago
        I come from a city in Britain Britain has a higher rate than the US. My argument still holds. Actually, my experience with crime rates is that where crime is common it goes unreported. Given nominal reporting rates of 50% for D.C (which is being far too kind), and 10% (which is far too harsh) for Delhi, still leaves it twice as safe (and thrice as safe as London). It takes an hour to dig up the data online. > I can only talk about the US, I'm not qualified to understand everything about India unfortunately. Please take everything I said on the last line with a pinch of salt. ... precisely my point. The propaganda has worked very well I can see. Again, don't trust the self-hating hindu unless they give you numbers.
- known 11y ago
  http://www.firstpost.com/living/india-a-civilisation-of-rapists-675937.html http://www.firstpost.com/living/india-a-civilisation-of-rapi...
  - g960 11y ago
    Breed lots of self-hating hindus and that's what you get. And it is Hindus. I don't see pedophilia and Nun-rapes in the Indian church being so loudly talked about by the Indian Christian community. Perhaps Hindus should just convert to Chritianity en masse and join the global brotherhood already. Their desperation to please us folk in the West is very endearing.
    - hiroproto 11y ago
      Breed lots of stupid people and we get people like who are oblivious to the realities of the world they live in. Pedophilia and nun rapes are decried the world over and everyone talks about them so much so that pedo jokes are a routine comedy lines in american stand up. They acknowledge their problems willingly and try to solve them, not indulge in what aboutism and deflection like you do.
      - g960 11y ago
        Indian Christian community. Perhaps you ought to put on your reading glasses Prof. Witzel. They acknowledge their problems willingly and try to solve them Sure they do. I'm sure the Vatican painted itself as a culture of pedophiles. Oh wait. No they didn't. Reply to your top post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_India#Rape_statistics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_India#Rape_statistics (and citations under "Estimates of unreported rapes") I'm sure you'll also argue that 50% for the US is way too low. Perhaps this should help. https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates To others: see what I mean by "Hinduphobe" ? You sicken me.
- hiroproto 11y ago
  Wow, so one anecdote nullifies everything that happens in the country? Are you blind or deaf ? So you're saying sexism in India is less than that in USA ? I don't see women in USA fearing quitting their jobs if they earn more than husbands. Nor are they forced to stay at home to cook/housework essentially killing their dreams of having a career. Step out of your bubble buddy and ask the women around you what they feel when they travel on our public transport, then ask some people who traveled on public transport abroad.
  - tamaatar 11y ago
    And your comment is doing what exactly? India is a huge country with a huge population. It is also very VERY diverse. With a billion+ people, yes some bad things do happen. But so do a lot of good things. Not every Indian man is so insecure that he forces wife to quit jobs if they earn more. And forced to stay home and cook? How many Indian women have you see doing that. We are a family oriented society and most women chose to do that and I am very proud of those Indian women. I can discuss this on and on but obviously you are inside your own bubble where USA is the greatest and "going out of the house and working for a company" is the greatest feat anyone can achieve and that's the only mark of liberation of women. And public transport? Hey read about Indian railways. It carried millions and millions of women around everyday and they are doing just fine.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
firasd 11y ago
As the author points out, the path into tech in India is seen as a lot more broadly applicable; it's a pathway into middle-class job like being a doctor. It's also a good base on which you can move overseas to work in the Middle East or Western countries. An interesting point she brings up is that gender bias in how one looks at STEM subjects is not universal. In many countries there isn't a prevalent idea that girls won't do well in math or programming classes. This helps with the "pipeline" problem because you end up with more educated women with expertise in these subjects. As someone who's lived both the US and India I also think one shouldn't consider Hacker News or tech blogs as particularly representative of the US software industry either. Narratives of conflict make for juicy reading, whether on Twitter or in the mainstream media but they are not holistic representations of how it is to live in a country or work in an industry.
- sparaker 11y ago
  I think learning to program is good for you in other aspects of life as well. You are able to make more informed and logical decisions due to your knowledge of programming.
bandrami 11y ago
There's an NGO I work with that teaches girls in Dharavi (the big slum in Mumbai) to program Android apps. They did a great job. I think a lot of people in the US don't get that in a lot of ways, the middle class in Mumbai or Hyderabad is really a lot like the middle class in the US (it doesn't help that the diaspora in the US mostly came over in the 60s and 70s, and there's a kind of "frozen in amber" quality of their memories of the old country).
- Nico2706 11y ago
  Do you have the name of this NGO, I'm interested to learn more about their experience.
  - maccard 11y ago
    Googling for Darvai Girls app sent me to this: http://efytimes.com/e1/fullnews.asp?edid=155811 http://efytimes.com/e1/fullnews.asp?edid=155811
sharmi 11y ago
Hi, I am the author here. I am kind of overwhelmed that my post got onto HN and there are so many comments :) This post was not meant to be a comprehensive social commentary. The post was triggered in response to a question from one of my friends at a local meetup on how to improve the gender imbalance. So the post tended to be more in tune with how to address that particular issue. This post is also not meant to decry or judge the women who voice out their opinions and experiences at work. It takes a lot of courage to talk about sexism at work as it can potentially affect the relationships with colleagues and also their future employment. Besides, it is impossible for me judge something based on just news reports. Women in India too have issues to tackle. The disproportional work for women at home in general which affects their participation outside. The inability to take off from work post-pregnancy for more than the prescribed period even if she wanted to. Cultural restrictions on what a woman can do or cannot do. These need to be addressed. But I believe these are more social issues than issues in tech. I respect the women who speak out regarding these and the men who acknowledge and support them. Without them progress would not be made. Unfortunately the proportion of the polarity of reports turn out to be more like product reviews. Say 10% of negative issues are reported. Not even 0.1% of the positive aspects are reported. (I am pulling numbers from the air, but I hope you get the picture ;) ) Thats because, when things go right, we often fail to notice. This often results in a skewed negative image. I have mostly been surrounded by men (father, brother, hubby, friends, colleagues, professors, teachers) who were most supportive of what I did and I believe they deserve credit too. Also, there must more such men and women out there in tech, who can/do inspire more girls into this interesting field. I believe as individuals, we can make a difference. Also, again, my experience is not definitive. Others might have had a different experience.

56 points by sridca 11y ago

good read it is.

g960 11y ago

Are you telling me that you aren't molested in your workplace everyday ? I was made to believe that all Indians are bred as little monsters in the cauldron of a rampant "rape culture". I'm completely confused having read this post, esp after a similar one on the US appeared last on HN, https://medium.com/@katylevinson/sexism-in-tech-don-t-ask-me-unless-you-re-ready-to-call-somebody-a-whistleblower-e5d545e547b0 https://medium.com/@katylevinson/sexism-in-tech-don-t-ask-me... See, it's even on Broadway! http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/28/theater/review-nirbhaya-a-lamentation-and-a-rallying-cry-for-indian-women.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/28/theater/review-nirbhaya-a-... (sarcasm).

dijit 11y ago
I have an unpopular opinion on the types of people who keep harping on about sexism in tech. And I'm not in a position to say it doesn't exist- (being a white guy and full of privilege), however it does seem that a lot of girls in tech are making a career of painting all other engineers as being inherently misogynistic, vacuous or malicious. I mean, I don't believe we should put barriers up for women who want to be in tech, I have a few female colleagues who work in this field and they're brilliant.. but making an entire career out of getting more diversity into the technology is strange to me. If I saw people being exclusionary then this would have merit.. but the females I know are embraced (not especially more than men, admittedly, usually the same). We're at a strange time where 90% of occasions I find a new engineer/hacker/programmer to follow on twitter, I have to check that they're not total social justice people, and it's overwhelmingly female techs that simply stop posting anything interesting technologically and start posting news articles about how we're all women hating or suppressing feminist views for not turning all characters in games into women immune from taking damage. (shitty example, I'm ranting, sorry) I think it's very popular to be a social justice kind of person, who can say no to equality! but maybe people are using it to identify themselves too much. --- in regards to the author of this piece, I would surmise that India is inherently more sexist than the US (given what my Indian friend says about the crime rate against women in India), therefore the expectations to be treated better than men in STEM fields doesn't exist? Not sure. And I don't really have enough knowledge to explain any disparity between the two.
- g960 11y ago
  I don't know if you read the (sarcasm) at the end. I find it ironic that while you shower self-pity when it comes to the US but paint India black anyway. India infact has a lower crime rate against women than the US (even after accounting for differences in reporting rates). Delhi comes out being "safer" than D.C; South India is apparently much safer (author appears to be from Chennai?). I'm given to believe that things are nowhere near as egregious as the Katy Levinson case. I read of this hilarious fact about insurance murders in NYC apparently being more in number than all the "Dowry"/Harassment cases which are so widely promulgated. http://www.amazon.com/Dowry-Murder-Imperial-Origins-Cultural/dp/0195150724 http://www.amazon.com/Dowry-Murder-Imperial-Origins-Cultural... Go figure. Don't believe the self-hating hindu.
  - dijit 11y ago
    I'm not American. Actually, my experience with crime rates is that where crime is common it goes unreported. I come from a city in Britain which has a very strong crime culture, but it's never reported. I imagine if you get raped by your uncle, and so does your friend, and your friend has reported it before and nothing happened- you'd be dissuaded from reporting it too. but I digress. I don't have a particularly objective opinion on India honestly, I have a sum total of 3 friends who openly talk about culture their (and only 1 who still lives there), while on the other hand I'm bathed in American culture- I read their books, stories, blogs, consume their movies. Not to mention the countless friends I have who still live there and openly talk about society. I can only talk about the US, I'm not qualified to understand everything about India unfortunately. Please take everything I said on the last line with a pinch of salt.
    - g960 11y ago
      I come from a city in Britain Britain has a higher rate than the US. My argument still holds. Actually, my experience with crime rates is that where crime is common it goes unreported. Given nominal reporting rates of 50% for D.C (which is being far too kind), and 10% (which is far too harsh) for Delhi, still leaves it twice as safe (and thrice as safe as London). It takes an hour to dig up the data online. > I can only talk about the US, I'm not qualified to understand everything about India unfortunately. Please take everything I said on the last line with a pinch of salt. ... precisely my point. The propaganda has worked very well I can see. Again, don't trust the self-hating hindu unless they give you numbers.
known 11y ago
http://www.firstpost.com/living/india-a-civilisation-of-rapists-675937.html http://www.firstpost.com/living/india-a-civilisation-of-rapi...
- g960 11y ago
  Breed lots of self-hating hindus and that's what you get. And it is Hindus. I don't see pedophilia and Nun-rapes in the Indian church being so loudly talked about by the Indian Christian community. Perhaps Hindus should just convert to Chritianity en masse and join the global brotherhood already. Their desperation to please us folk in the West is very endearing.
  - hiroproto 11y ago
    Breed lots of stupid people and we get people like who are oblivious to the realities of the world they live in. Pedophilia and nun rapes are decried the world over and everyone talks about them so much so that pedo jokes are a routine comedy lines in american stand up. They acknowledge their problems willingly and try to solve them, not indulge in what aboutism and deflection like you do.
    - g960 11y ago
      Indian Christian community. Perhaps you ought to put on your reading glasses Prof. Witzel. They acknowledge their problems willingly and try to solve them Sure they do. I'm sure the Vatican painted itself as a culture of pedophiles. Oh wait. No they didn't. Reply to your top post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_India#Rape_statistics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_India#Rape_statistics (and citations under "Estimates of unreported rapes") I'm sure you'll also argue that 50% for the US is way too low. Perhaps this should help. https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates To others: see what I mean by "Hinduphobe" ? You sicken me.
hiroproto 11y ago
Wow, so one anecdote nullifies everything that happens in the country? Are you blind or deaf ? So you're saying sexism in India is less than that in USA ? I don't see women in USA fearing quitting their jobs if they earn more than husbands. Nor are they forced to stay at home to cook/housework essentially killing their dreams of having a career. Step out of your bubble buddy and ask the women around you what they feel when they travel on our public transport, then ask some people who traveled on public transport abroad.
- tamaatar 11y ago
  And your comment is doing what exactly? India is a huge country with a huge population. It is also very VERY diverse. With a billion+ people, yes some bad things do happen. But so do a lot of good things. Not every Indian man is so insecure that he forces wife to quit jobs if they earn more. And forced to stay home and cook? How many Indian women have you see doing that. We are a family oriented society and most women chose to do that and I am very proud of those Indian women. I can discuss this on and on but obviously you are inside your own bubble where USA is the greatest and "going out of the house and working for a company" is the greatest feat anyone can achieve and that's the only mark of liberation of women. And public transport? Hey read about Indian railways. It carried millions and millions of women around everyday and they are doing just fine.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

firasd 11y ago

As the author points out, the path into tech in India is seen as a lot more broadly applicable; it's a pathway into middle-class job like being a doctor. It's also a good base on which you can move overseas to work in the Middle East or Western countries. An interesting point she brings up is that gender bias in how one looks at STEM subjects is not universal. In many countries there isn't a prevalent idea that girls won't do well in math or programming classes. This helps with the "pipeline" problem because you end up with more educated women with expertise in these subjects. As someone who's lived both the US and India I also think one shouldn't consider Hacker News or tech blogs as particularly representative of the US software industry either. Narratives of conflict make for juicy reading, whether on Twitter or in the mainstream media but they are not holistic representations of how it is to live in a country or work in an industry.

sparaker 11y ago
I think learning to program is good for you in other aspects of life as well. You are able to make more informed and logical decisions due to your knowledge of programming.

bandrami 11y ago

There's an NGO I work with that teaches girls in Dharavi (the big slum in Mumbai) to program Android apps. They did a great job. I think a lot of people in the US don't get that in a lot of ways, the middle class in Mumbai or Hyderabad is really a lot like the middle class in the US (it doesn't help that the diaspora in the US mostly came over in the 60s and 70s, and there's a kind of "frozen in amber" quality of their memories of the old country).

Nico2706 11y ago
Do you have the name of this NGO, I'm interested to learn more about their experience.
- maccard 11y ago
  Googling for Darvai Girls app sent me to this: http://efytimes.com/e1/fullnews.asp?edid=155811 http://efytimes.com/e1/fullnews.asp?edid=155811

sharmi 11y ago

Hi, I am the author here. I am kind of overwhelmed that my post got onto HN and there are so many comments :) This post was not meant to be a comprehensive social commentary. The post was triggered in response to a question from one of my friends at a local meetup on how to improve the gender imbalance. So the post tended to be more in tune with how to address that particular issue. This post is also not meant to decry or judge the women who voice out their opinions and experiences at work. It takes a lot of courage to talk about sexism at work as it can potentially affect the relationships with colleagues and also their future employment. Besides, it is impossible for me judge something based on just news reports. Women in India too have issues to tackle. The disproportional work for women at home in general which affects their participation outside. The inability to take off from work post-pregnancy for more than the prescribed period even if she wanted to. Cultural restrictions on what a woman can do or cannot do. These need to be addressed. But I believe these are more social issues than issues in tech. I respect the women who speak out regarding these and the men who acknowledge and support them. Without them progress would not be made. Unfortunately the proportion of the polarity of reports turn out to be more like product reviews. Say 10% of negative issues are reported. Not even 0.1% of the positive aspects are reported. (I am pulling numbers from the air, but I hope you get the picture ;) ) Thats because, when things go right, we often fail to notice. This often results in a skewed negative image. I have mostly been surrounded by men (father, brother, hubby, friends, colleagues, professors, teachers) who were most supportive of what I did and I believe they deserve credit too. Also, there must more such men and women out there in tech, who can/do inspire more girls into this interesting field. I believe as individuals, we can make a difference. Also, again, my experience is not definitive. Others might have had a different experience.