5 ms·

I'm not sure I understand your logic here. They've come up with a clever way to create a sustainable, free vpn service, with the ability to easily opt-out for a

by dchuk 11y ago

I'm not sure I understand your logic here. They've come up with a clever way to create a sustainable, free vpn service, with the ability to easily opt-out for a still reasonable price. All the while clearly stating how it all works in their FAQ. What more do you want them to do?

TylerE 11y ago
What happens when the Feds are knocking on your door because someone routed kiddie pr0n or drug deals through your connection?
- dchuk 11y ago
  Doesn't that same risk exist if you're running a Tor exit node?
  - nickysielicki 11y ago
    That's exactly the point, people hosting tor exit nodes are very aware of the risk they're taking. Hola users aren't. Most people use Hola to watch internet shows not available in their country. Or, for example, some people use Hola to watch southparkstudios from Sweden, because it's freely available there, but in the US it requires hulu plus. I'm on a college campus, I am always peeking at people's screens in the library and I'll see the little Hola flame in their navbar. I even saw it on a CS grad student's browser once before class. No one has any idea.
- pwnna 11y ago
  To play devil's advocate: isn't this kind of a good thing for privacy though? If everyone routed everyone else's stuff, it will decouple the notion that IP = person. Although the service seems shady, if everyone did this wouldn't it be for the better? (albeit at cost of slower connections)
  - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
    You're right, it would be good for privacy if we can convince the courts that users installing the software are not responsible for the traffic of other users. I'm afraid this argument will fall on deaf ears.
  - guiambros 11y ago
    Sure, except for the poor soul that was looking for some anonymity, and now has the FBI knocking on her door with a mandate, because a shady service that didn't disclose what it was doing to your connection. Decoupling IP from people won't happen anytime soon. It's better for law enforcement to just go, seize everything, and deal with the false positives later. See the long list of "suggestions" for people interested in running their own tor exit node [1]. This is not something you should even think about doing from your personal home, mixed with your own traffic. It's asking for trouble. [1] https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tips-running-exit-node-minimal-harassment https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tips-running-exit-node-mini...
  - yellowapple 11y ago
    You can already decouple the notion that IP = person if you look at public wifi hotspots, where one IP address will typically correspond to hundreds or even thousands of devices owned by the customers of the hotspot's owner (like a Starbucks or McDonald's location) plus (depending on the setup and whether or not the hotspot is on a separate WAN connection) the company's own machines. This, come to think of it, sounds like a more ideal approach to creating exit nodes (whether for Tor, a more traditional VPN, etc.). Some low-profile innocuous-looking wall wart - perhaps with USB ports to double as a USB charging station, or some other "clever" disguise - could really be an "exit-node-in-a-box", relaying Tor users through public wifi hotspots in restaurants, hospitals, etc. I reckon this will be more prevalent if any jurisdictions start doing silly things like holding people liable for what their computers emit when they run exit nodes (or - worse - ban Tor, VPNs, etc. outright).
  - Nexxxeh 11y ago
    It provides plausible deniability. It wasn't me, it was Hola. The issue is there's no informed consent. Outside of /r/netsec, /r/techsupport and HN etc, there probably aren't people who know how Hola works and what the implications are. You can bet the majority of Hola users don't know what a MITM attack is. I'd wager more than half wouldn't know what a bot net is, or what an exit node is. Most Hola users have not given informed consent.
- marssaxman 11y ago
  What happens when an asteroid falls on your head? So far as I have been able to discover, the number of times your scenario has occurred in real life could be counted on one hand.
  - eps 11y ago
    You should become a tor exit node and look at the traffic. It will shock the fuck out of all your libertarian thinking.
    - pjc50 11y ago
      Such as? Could you give a description for those of us who don't want to risk actually doing this? I'm guessing you're referring to CP.
    - marssaxman 11y ago
      I'm sure people do all kinds of things. My question is, do the people running exit nodes actually get in legal trouble for traffic that happens to transit their routers? It seems to be an accepted bit of folk wisdom that they do, but I cannot find many actual, documented cases where it has actually happened. This leaves me wondering whether the widely-assumed legal risk is real or just an urban legend.
      - glass- 11y ago
        http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/07/04/austrian_tor_exit_relay_op_found_guitly_for_ferrying_child_p0rn/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/07/04/austrian_tor_exit_re... http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-operators http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-operators
malka 11y ago
No one reads FAQ. Such an important information should be displayed prominently on the plugin page.

by dchuk 11y ago

TylerE 11y ago

What happens when the Feds are knocking on your door because someone routed kiddie pr0n or drug deals through your connection?

dchuk 11y ago
Doesn't that same risk exist if you're running a Tor exit node?
- nickysielicki 11y ago
  That's exactly the point, people hosting tor exit nodes are very aware of the risk they're taking. Hola users aren't. Most people use Hola to watch internet shows not available in their country. Or, for example, some people use Hola to watch southparkstudios from Sweden, because it's freely available there, but in the US it requires hulu plus. I'm on a college campus, I am always peeking at people's screens in the library and I'll see the little Hola flame in their navbar. I even saw it on a CS grad student's browser once before class. No one has any idea.
pwnna 11y ago
To play devil's advocate: isn't this kind of a good thing for privacy though? If everyone routed everyone else's stuff, it will decouple the notion that IP = person. Although the service seems shady, if everyone did this wouldn't it be for the better? (albeit at cost of slower connections)
- stefantalpalaru 11y ago
  You're right, it would be good for privacy if we can convince the courts that users installing the software are not responsible for the traffic of other users. I'm afraid this argument will fall on deaf ears.
- guiambros 11y ago
  Sure, except for the poor soul that was looking for some anonymity, and now has the FBI knocking on her door with a mandate, because a shady service that didn't disclose what it was doing to your connection. Decoupling IP from people won't happen anytime soon. It's better for law enforcement to just go, seize everything, and deal with the false positives later. See the long list of "suggestions" for people interested in running their own tor exit node [1]. This is not something you should even think about doing from your personal home, mixed with your own traffic. It's asking for trouble. [1] https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tips-running-exit-node-minimal-harassment https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tips-running-exit-node-mini...
- yellowapple 11y ago
  You can already decouple the notion that IP = person if you look at public wifi hotspots, where one IP address will typically correspond to hundreds or even thousands of devices owned by the customers of the hotspot's owner (like a Starbucks or McDonald's location) plus (depending on the setup and whether or not the hotspot is on a separate WAN connection) the company's own machines. This, come to think of it, sounds like a more ideal approach to creating exit nodes (whether for Tor, a more traditional VPN, etc.). Some low-profile innocuous-looking wall wart - perhaps with USB ports to double as a USB charging station, or some other "clever" disguise - could really be an "exit-node-in-a-box", relaying Tor users through public wifi hotspots in restaurants, hospitals, etc. I reckon this will be more prevalent if any jurisdictions start doing silly things like holding people liable for what their computers emit when they run exit nodes (or - worse - ban Tor, VPNs, etc. outright).
- Nexxxeh 11y ago
  It provides plausible deniability. It wasn't me, it was Hola. The issue is there's no informed consent. Outside of /r/netsec, /r/techsupport and HN etc, there probably aren't people who know how Hola works and what the implications are. You can bet the majority of Hola users don't know what a MITM attack is. I'd wager more than half wouldn't know what a bot net is, or what an exit node is. Most Hola users have not given informed consent.
marssaxman 11y ago
What happens when an asteroid falls on your head? So far as I have been able to discover, the number of times your scenario has occurred in real life could be counted on one hand.
- eps 11y ago
  You should become a tor exit node and look at the traffic. It will shock the fuck out of all your libertarian thinking.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    Such as? Could you give a description for those of us who don't want to risk actually doing this? I'm guessing you're referring to CP.
  - marssaxman 11y ago
    I'm sure people do all kinds of things. My question is, do the people running exit nodes actually get in legal trouble for traffic that happens to transit their routers? It seems to be an accepted bit of folk wisdom that they do, but I cannot find many actual, documented cases where it has actually happened. This leaves me wondering whether the widely-assumed legal risk is real or just an urban legend.
    - glass- 11y ago
      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/07/04/austrian_tor_exit_relay_op_found_guitly_for_ferrying_child_p0rn/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/07/04/austrian_tor_exit_re... http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-operators http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-operators

malka 11y ago

No one reads FAQ. Such an important information should be displayed prominently on the plugin page.