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I've never understood the logic of a state killing its citizens in order to show that killing is unacceptable.

LordKano 11y ago
Do you understand the logic of the state seizing people and locking them up in order to show that seizing people and locking them up is unacceptable? That's what we do to kidnappers.
- bklaasen 11y ago
  Right, and there's no qualitative difference between killing someone and locking them up. You've convinced me that I'm wrong.
  - koenigdavidmj 11y ago
    Your argument against capital punishment was that the role of an actor was irrelevant to the morality of the action. It's entirely correct to apply that logic to other types of action. There may be plenty of valid arguments against capital punishment. Yours was not one of them.
    - bklaasen 11y ago
      > the role of an actor [is] irrelevant to the morality of the action [carried out by the state] That's precisely what I'm saying. You disagree, but that does not render my argument invalid.
      - koenigdavidmj 11y ago
        Then we're back to the beginning. Here is a syllogism that you just said you agree with: 1. An action is immoral without regard to the actor. 2. Killing is immoral for a regular joe on the street. 3. Therefore, killing is immoral for the government. However, you don't seem as comfortable with: 1. An action is immoral without regard to the actor. 2. Demanding someone's money by force (e.g mugging) is immoral. 3. Therefore, it is immoral for the government to issue a fine. Or this one: 1. An action is immoral without regard to the actor. 2. Kidnapping someone and holding them for years is immoral for a regular joe. 3. Therefore, imprisonment is immoral for the government. You could also remain consistent by saying that armed robbery and kidnapping are moral. It's up to you. EDIT: Typo and punctuation.
    - LordKano 11y ago
      Precisely! It's snarky and sounds witty on its surface but completely falls apart upon examination. The other argument that I find troubling is the one where they claim that execution is too cruel but life imprisonment is acceptable because the guilty party suffers more.
mikeash 11y ago
Is that different from any other punishment? We imprison people to show that imprisoning people is unacceptable. We take people's money to show that taking people's money is unacceptable. We even violate the speed limit to show that violating the speed limit is unacceptable.
- eCa 11y ago
  > Is that different from any other punishment? Yes, death is different. Because all other punishments can, in some way, be compensated if later the punishment is deemed to have been given in error. That is not yet possible with someone who is dead.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    While that's a good argument for preserving other punishments but abolishing the death penalty (and one I happen to agree with), it has no bearing on the supposed illogic of killing in order to show that killing is unacceptable.
  - tertius 11y ago
    So 50 years in prison and being labeled by society as a murderer/rapist can be compensated how exactly?
tertius 11y ago
This is where the difference between killing and murder is drawn.

Do you understand the logic of the state seizing people and locking them up in order to show that seizing people and locking them up is unacceptable? That's what we do to kidnappers.

bklaasen 11y ago
Right, and there's no qualitative difference between killing someone and locking them up. You've convinced me that I'm wrong.
- koenigdavidmj 11y ago
  Your argument against capital punishment was that the role of an actor was irrelevant to the morality of the action. It's entirely correct to apply that logic to other types of action. There may be plenty of valid arguments against capital punishment. Yours was not one of them.
  - bklaasen 11y ago
    > the role of an actor [is] irrelevant to the morality of the action [carried out by the state] That's precisely what I'm saying. You disagree, but that does not render my argument invalid.
    - koenigdavidmj 11y ago
      Then we're back to the beginning. Here is a syllogism that you just said you agree with: 1. An action is immoral without regard to the actor. 2. Killing is immoral for a regular joe on the street. 3. Therefore, killing is immoral for the government. However, you don't seem as comfortable with: 1. An action is immoral without regard to the actor. 2. Demanding someone's money by force (e.g mugging) is immoral. 3. Therefore, it is immoral for the government to issue a fine. Or this one: 1. An action is immoral without regard to the actor. 2. Kidnapping someone and holding them for years is immoral for a regular joe. 3. Therefore, imprisonment is immoral for the government. You could also remain consistent by saying that armed robbery and kidnapping are moral. It's up to you. EDIT: Typo and punctuation.
  - LordKano 11y ago
    Precisely! It's snarky and sounds witty on its surface but completely falls apart upon examination. The other argument that I find troubling is the one where they claim that execution is too cruel but life imprisonment is acceptable because the guilty party suffers more.

mikeash 11y ago

Is that different from any other punishment? We imprison people to show that imprisoning people is unacceptable. We take people's money to show that taking people's money is unacceptable. We even violate the speed limit to show that violating the speed limit is unacceptable.

eCa 11y ago
> Is that different from any other punishment? Yes, death is different. Because all other punishments can, in some way, be compensated if later the punishment is deemed to have been given in error. That is not yet possible with someone who is dead.
- mikeash 11y ago
  While that's a good argument for preserving other punishments but abolishing the death penalty (and one I happen to agree with), it has no bearing on the supposed illogic of killing in order to show that killing is unacceptable.
- tertius 11y ago
  So 50 years in prison and being labeled by society as a murderer/rapist can be compensated how exactly?

tertius 11y ago

This is where the difference between killing and murder is drawn.