4 ms·

>Russia is bad, private enterprise is good Considering Putin is playing politics with space, namely limiting critical RD-180 sales after the west criticized hi

>Russia is bad, private enterprise is good Considering Putin is playing politics with space, namely limiting critical RD-180 sales after the west criticized his illegal annexation of parts of Ukraine, as well as funding and arming rebels who are purposely targeting civilians, well, what exactly do you want us to say here? Engage in more mindless political correctness? Sing kumbaya around the campfire as to not offend Russiophile HN'ers? Putin's Russia is bad. They're dishonest partners and the US should keep its space policy under its national borders for sanity reasons. Look at the early retirement of the ISS. Russia is taking its modules and leaving the project in a few years, again as punishing the west for criticizing their illegal annexations. Previous to this the ISS was thought to be a project with a decade or two of service left. Also, Putin's mismanagement of his economy means he just cut the Russian space program by a third and what's left is good at flying Soviet-era Soyuz and building Soviet era RD-180's but can't keep post-Soviet Proton-M's from exploding. From a practical stand-point, ignoring everything else, we simply don't need or want their tech now that the RD-180 based rockets are being made redundant/replaced and Orion/Dragon flying astronauts in the next 3 or so years.

nraynaud 11y ago
the US invaded Iraq, and kill people everywhere in the world on a regular basis too, overthrow governments, helps dictators and lie to people all the time. Nobody gets ahead when you only look for scapegoats and with Manichaeism as a policy. We are bringing back the world into the 20st century, this will be a big problem.
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  That's fine, you are very welcome not to buy our rockets, iphones, software, and processors if you want to protest our foreign policy. We're not buying Putin's stuff, so don't buy ours. I don't see a problem with this. >overthrow governments The middle east is migrating to democracy and has the least amount of dictators in charge in my lifetime, thanks to US foreign policy. While I think foriegn policy is hard to judge, annexing land Russia-style for "fuck you" reasons is very different than overthrowing dictators murdering their people and those people begging for US/NATO/UN intervention, which we sometimes provide. The world tried non-interventionism and it got us WWII. Better the US/NATO making these calls than autocratic powers with annexation agendas like China or Russia.
  - nraynaud 11y ago
    Life is not a competition towards who has the stupidest, most antagonistic or most isolationist behavior, that's the whole point of discussing in a forum, trying to put ideas in people's head instead of trying to starve them economically or bombing them. My idea in the initial post was to have people think about one point of view about this deal. In particular because it seem people are mostly from the left here, but there is a real Reaganian aspect to the move.
  - ryanlol 11y ago
    >The middle east is migrating to democracy and has the least amount of dictators in charge in my lifetime How's that democracy working out in Libya and Syria? Many (probably pretty much everyone actually familiar with the situation) would argue that things were better under those dictators.
    - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
      >How's that democracy working out in Libya and Syria? How was India immediately after its colonial rule? Or South Korea after the war? Its incredible how people conveniently forget how long transition periods are for societies that were previous non-democratic to a democratic one. Ten to fifteen years from now it will be a very different picture. Migrating to a democratic capatalistic economy is an incredible thing. GDP comparision between North and South Korea below: http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/chart_content/Institutions%20Matter%20Real%20Per%20Capita%20GDP%20in%20North%20and%20South%20Korea.JPG http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/sites/default/files/image... It was rough for the South Koreans until the 1970s then its been all gravy. They went from war ravage rural wasteland to the most envious economy in about 20 years.
      - foobarqux 11y ago
        There is no population on earth that has been grateful for "democracy bombs" to have been dropped on them.
      - ryanlol 11y ago
shit_parade2 11y ago
Are you aware of the extensive US driven sanctions against Russia? We pressured the French to reneg on a hardware contracts with Russia, why would they not return the favor?
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  If Putin didn't like that, he was more than welcome to end the Crimean occupation and stop shooting children in eastern Ukraine. Again, Putin made space political.
  - shit_parade2 11y ago
    Perhaps he should foster a Mexican coup, you know if the US doesn't like it they shouldn't of some the same in Ukraine. Get off your myopic high horse, both the US and Russia are imperial empires bathed in blood.
    - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
      Comparing the US's relationship to Mexico with Putin's relationship to Ukraine is idiotic. Sadly, false equivalence is the typical Russiophile's last defense.
      - 67726e 11y ago
        It's all a part of the playbook, and has been for a while: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
      - shit_parade2 11y ago
        No its not. Regional power and influence is an important concept for sovereign countries. The US is more interested in insuring its neighbors are well behaved than if a country across the Atlantic likes it. The same is true for Russia, if Russian-Canadian relations are tense that's not as nearly important as whether its neighbor Ukraine is bombing civilians on its border. America is not exceptional, your argument requires we treat America and Russia with different moral thresholds, that's insane.

nraynaud 11y ago

the US invaded Iraq, and kill people everywhere in the world on a regular basis too, overthrow governments, helps dictators and lie to people all the time. Nobody gets ahead when you only look for scapegoats and with Manichaeism as a policy. We are bringing back the world into the 20st century, this will be a big problem.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago
That's fine, you are very welcome not to buy our rockets, iphones, software, and processors if you want to protest our foreign policy. We're not buying Putin's stuff, so don't buy ours. I don't see a problem with this. >overthrow governments The middle east is migrating to democracy and has the least amount of dictators in charge in my lifetime, thanks to US foreign policy. While I think foriegn policy is hard to judge, annexing land Russia-style for "fuck you" reasons is very different than overthrowing dictators murdering their people and those people begging for US/NATO/UN intervention, which we sometimes provide. The world tried non-interventionism and it got us WWII. Better the US/NATO making these calls than autocratic powers with annexation agendas like China or Russia.
- nraynaud 11y ago
  Life is not a competition towards who has the stupidest, most antagonistic or most isolationist behavior, that's the whole point of discussing in a forum, trying to put ideas in people's head instead of trying to starve them economically or bombing them. My idea in the initial post was to have people think about one point of view about this deal. In particular because it seem people are mostly from the left here, but there is a real Reaganian aspect to the move.
- ryanlol 11y ago
  >The middle east is migrating to democracy and has the least amount of dictators in charge in my lifetime How's that democracy working out in Libya and Syria? Many (probably pretty much everyone actually familiar with the situation) would argue that things were better under those dictators.
  - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
    >How's that democracy working out in Libya and Syria? How was India immediately after its colonial rule? Or South Korea after the war? Its incredible how people conveniently forget how long transition periods are for societies that were previous non-democratic to a democratic one. Ten to fifteen years from now it will be a very different picture. Migrating to a democratic capatalistic economy is an incredible thing. GDP comparision between North and South Korea below: http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/chart_content/Institutions%20Matter%20Real%20Per%20Capita%20GDP%20in%20North%20and%20South%20Korea.JPG http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/sites/default/files/image... It was rough for the South Koreans until the 1970s then its been all gravy. They went from war ravage rural wasteland to the most envious economy in about 20 years.
    - foobarqux 11y ago
      There is no population on earth that has been grateful for "democracy bombs" to have been dropped on them.
    - ryanlol 11y ago

shit_parade2 11y ago

Are you aware of the extensive US driven sanctions against Russia? We pressured the French to reneg on a hardware contracts with Russia, why would they not return the favor?

drzaiusapelord 11y ago
If Putin didn't like that, he was more than welcome to end the Crimean occupation and stop shooting children in eastern Ukraine. Again, Putin made space political.
- shit_parade2 11y ago
  Perhaps he should foster a Mexican coup, you know if the US doesn't like it they shouldn't of some the same in Ukraine. Get off your myopic high horse, both the US and Russia are imperial empires bathed in blood.
  - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
    Comparing the US's relationship to Mexico with Putin's relationship to Ukraine is idiotic. Sadly, false equivalence is the typical Russiophile's last defense.
    - 67726e 11y ago
      It's all a part of the playbook, and has been for a while: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
    - shit_parade2 11y ago
      No its not. Regional power and influence is an important concept for sovereign countries. The US is more interested in insuring its neighbors are well behaved than if a country across the Atlantic likes it. The same is true for Russia, if Russian-Canadian relations are tense that's not as nearly important as whether its neighbor Ukraine is bombing civilians on its border. America is not exceptional, your argument requires we treat America and Russia with different moral thresholds, that's insane.