2 ms·

"We are only beholden to our own actions" That's now how the world works now, and the only way to get what you declare is fixing all the countries and uniting

"We are only beholden to our own actions" That's now how the world works now, and the only way to get what you declare is fixing all the countries and uniting Earth.

ido 11y ago
You are welcome to pursue fixing the world. Doesn't change my opinion that an Indian/Somali/whatever has the same right to a life of comfort as you, since they didn't choose to be born where they did and neither did you.
- guard-of-terra 11y ago
  Do they also have right to money already in my wallet? Because, rights and privileges (for example, developed country social safety net) is a kind of capital.
  - ido 11y ago
    Despite having the good fortune of being born into quite significant privilege (I'm a white, tall, straight guy born to middle class parents in a western country - if anyone has been playing life on the easiest difficulty level it's me) I'm actually a socialist & believe in income redistribution (choosing to live in Germany has something to do with it - it's much more of a socialist welfare state with high taxes & wealth redistribution than the country I was born in - I would have been making more money and paying less taxes if I stayed there). Obviously we can't completely equalize the playing field (like tall, good looking people getting better opportunities etc), but I do think we should do as much as we practically can. That's why yes, I do think we should strive for open borders even though it will be significantly non-beneficial to me as a birth-lottery winner. Although practically I think it will only work out if all or almost all countries will open their borders at the same time, to prevent 100s of millions of people moving into any single country at once. I don't think this will happen in my life time but I sure hope it does. And on a more concrete note - if I'll have a chance of helping someone from a poor country come to Germany e.g. via offering them employment/visa sponsorship - I will prefer doing that compared to hiring a local.
    - guard-of-terra 11y ago
      For some reason you think that mechanically bringing people from foreign country will level the playing field. This is far from truth. You need a large and diverse skillset to "pilot" a developed country (make advantage of its infrastructure, give back). Once you bring in millions of uneducated, unfamiliar and uncaring people, things go south. You also lie to these people: you tell them that by leaving their communities they will land in developed paradise, but when they arrive they only see themself as 3rd sort, shunned by locals, without prospect of fruitful employment. Of course they'll radicalize. If you are serious about wanting to make world better, you should implement something like american Green Card but on grand scale. Pre-select qualified applicants by testing (build emigration schools for them perhaps, where they learn how to live in developed countries), distribute entrance permits via lottery, shape their flow, monitor their destiny so you can at any moment prove they are happier than ever, don't hurt the receiving society and productive. But this is obviously harder than "just opening the gates wide open" or "blaming for the lack of aforementioned".
      - ido 11y ago
        It's not so much that I think it will automatically help them as much as I think that it's unfair that we restrict people's ability to improve their lot in life because of their nationality. Moving from one place to another should be their decision, just like a citizen from a poor city can decide to move to a richer city in the same country (or if you wish, a citizen from a poor EU state can move to a rich EU state - same reason why I fully supported poorer countries like Bulgaria, Romania & Croatia joining the EU & hope to see Turkey joining as well at some point in the future). Not granting them that freedom reduces class mobility, even thought it's not the only element in the equation. We should definitely additionally also try to fix the other factors reducing or limiting class mobility.
  - beachstartup 11y ago
    > Do they also have right to money already in my wallet? what in the hell are you talking about? what rights? they're out to GET THEIRS just like everyone else, and they're more than happy to screw you over for it, as they should be. does that not sit well with you? boo fuckin' hoo. like it or not, brown people are going to continue to come to the US and work/live here like they have for decades if not centuries. you can't stop it no matter how passive aggressive you get on the internet. they might even be smarter and/or harder working than you, which is a shock, i'm sure. and they sure as shit don't have to listen to your cockamamey ideas of staying in a shithole and "fixing" things they have no inclination or obligation to fix. learn how to compete or die. in the real world nobody gives a shit what your skin color is or what your passport says. you just sound like a pathetic loser when you moan about people taking "your" stuff. if it wasn't them, it'd be someone else, most likely of your own skin color. this is America, land of opportunity, not the land of protectionist nativist crybabies.

"We are only beholden to our own actions" That's now how the world works now, and the only way to get what you declare is fixing all the countries and uniting Earth.

ido 11y ago

You are welcome to pursue fixing the world. Doesn't change my opinion that an Indian/Somali/whatever has the same right to a life of comfort as you, since they didn't choose to be born where they did and neither did you.

guard-of-terra 11y ago
Do they also have right to money already in my wallet? Because, rights and privileges (for example, developed country social safety net) is a kind of capital.
- ido 11y ago
  Despite having the good fortune of being born into quite significant privilege (I'm a white, tall, straight guy born to middle class parents in a western country - if anyone has been playing life on the easiest difficulty level it's me) I'm actually a socialist & believe in income redistribution (choosing to live in Germany has something to do with it - it's much more of a socialist welfare state with high taxes & wealth redistribution than the country I was born in - I would have been making more money and paying less taxes if I stayed there). Obviously we can't completely equalize the playing field (like tall, good looking people getting better opportunities etc), but I do think we should do as much as we practically can. That's why yes, I do think we should strive for open borders even though it will be significantly non-beneficial to me as a birth-lottery winner. Although practically I think it will only work out if all or almost all countries will open their borders at the same time, to prevent 100s of millions of people moving into any single country at once. I don't think this will happen in my life time but I sure hope it does. And on a more concrete note - if I'll have a chance of helping someone from a poor country come to Germany e.g. via offering them employment/visa sponsorship - I will prefer doing that compared to hiring a local.
  - guard-of-terra 11y ago
    For some reason you think that mechanically bringing people from foreign country will level the playing field. This is far from truth. You need a large and diverse skillset to "pilot" a developed country (make advantage of its infrastructure, give back). Once you bring in millions of uneducated, unfamiliar and uncaring people, things go south. You also lie to these people: you tell them that by leaving their communities they will land in developed paradise, but when they arrive they only see themself as 3rd sort, shunned by locals, without prospect of fruitful employment. Of course they'll radicalize. If you are serious about wanting to make world better, you should implement something like american Green Card but on grand scale. Pre-select qualified applicants by testing (build emigration schools for them perhaps, where they learn how to live in developed countries), distribute entrance permits via lottery, shape their flow, monitor their destiny so you can at any moment prove they are happier than ever, don't hurt the receiving society and productive. But this is obviously harder than "just opening the gates wide open" or "blaming for the lack of aforementioned".
    - ido 11y ago
      It's not so much that I think it will automatically help them as much as I think that it's unfair that we restrict people's ability to improve their lot in life because of their nationality. Moving from one place to another should be their decision, just like a citizen from a poor city can decide to move to a richer city in the same country (or if you wish, a citizen from a poor EU state can move to a rich EU state - same reason why I fully supported poorer countries like Bulgaria, Romania & Croatia joining the EU & hope to see Turkey joining as well at some point in the future). Not granting them that freedom reduces class mobility, even thought it's not the only element in the equation. We should definitely additionally also try to fix the other factors reducing or limiting class mobility.
- beachstartup 11y ago
  > Do they also have right to money already in my wallet? what in the hell are you talking about? what rights? they're out to GET THEIRS just like everyone else, and they're more than happy to screw you over for it, as they should be. does that not sit well with you? boo fuckin' hoo. like it or not, brown people are going to continue to come to the US and work/live here like they have for decades if not centuries. you can't stop it no matter how passive aggressive you get on the internet. they might even be smarter and/or harder working than you, which is a shock, i'm sure. and they sure as shit don't have to listen to your cockamamey ideas of staying in a shithole and "fixing" things they have no inclination or obligation to fix. learn how to compete or die. in the real world nobody gives a shit what your skin color is or what your passport says. you just sound like a pathetic loser when you moan about people taking "your" stuff. if it wasn't them, it'd be someone else, most likely of your own skin color. this is America, land of opportunity, not the land of protectionist nativist crybabies.