5 ms·

"Of course the immigrants have a right to the good things of life also" Maybe we should be fixing their societies? Because letting 0,1% of people in third-worl

"Of course the immigrants have a right to the good things of life also" Maybe we should be fixing their societies? Because letting 0,1% of people in third-world countries come and enjoy good things does nothing for their society in a long run, while it can do considerable harm (or good, for sure!) for the receiving society.

RobertoG 11y ago
Well yes. If we can do that, I totally agree. But, is that politically possible? I would vote for serious resource investment in a plan for finishing the world poverty but I suspect it's not in the program of the political parties. We prefer to organize military operations ¿!??, like the current European one against the "mafias" that "exploit" the Libyan illegal immigrants, instead of facing the roots of the problem.
icebraining 11y ago
letting 0,1% of people in third-world countries come and enjoy good things does nothing for their society in a long run Sure it does. It alleviates the problem of the (often) explosive population growth, it brings in billions of dollars in remittances, and it allows future returnees to come with education and work experience which is, if not better, at least different from what the origin country provides. There's a nice example in this week's TAL episode, regarding Kaiser Kuo, the American-born son of Chinese immigrants who "brought rock and roll to China" (by being one of the founders of Tang Dynasty). I think it's clear that the immigration of his parents was essential for his accomplishments.
- guard-of-terra 11y ago
  Taking away 0,1% of people sure doesn't solve the problem of population growth, it's statistically insignificant. Your other points stand, but only if donor society is in relatively good shape. Indian emigrants may help India but I doubt Somalian or Libyan emigrants help countries they fled.
  - ido 11y ago
    Why don't you move to Somalia or Libya and try your best to help them? The pure accident of chance that someone was born in one country and you were born in another does not change your or their obligation to either country. We are only beholden to our own actions, not those of our ancestors or people who carry the same passport as us.
    - guard-of-terra 11y ago
      "We are only beholden to our own actions" That's now how the world works now, and the only way to get what you declare is fixing all the countries and uniting Earth.
      - ido 11y ago
        You are welcome to pursue fixing the world. Doesn't change my opinion that an Indian/Somali/whatever has the same right to a life of comfort as you, since they didn't choose to be born where they did and neither did you.
        guard-of-terra 11y ago
        Do they also have right to money already in my wallet? Because, rights and privileges (for example, developed country social safety net) is a kind of capital.
        ido 11y ago
        Despite having the good fortune of being born into quite significant privilege (I'm a white, tall, straight guy born to middle class parents in a western country - if anyone has been playing life on the easiest difficulty level it's me) I'm actually a socialist & believe in income redistribution (choosing to live in Germany has something to do with it - it's much more of a socialist welfare state with high taxes & wealth redistribution than the country I was born in - I would have been making more money and paying less taxes if I stayed there). Obviously we can't completely equalize the playing field (like tall, good looking people getting better opportunities etc), but I do think we should do as much as we practically can. That's why yes, I do think we should strive for open borders even though it will be significantly non-beneficial to me as a birth-lottery winner. Although practically I think it will only work out if all or almost all countries will open their borders at the same time, to prevent 100s of millions of people moving into any single country at once. I don't think this will happen in my life time but I sure hope it does. And on a more concrete note - if I'll have a chance of helping someone from a poor country come to Germany e.g. via offering them employment/visa sponsorship - I will prefer doing that compared to hiring a local.
- ido 11y ago
  Even if it would have been better off for country X to not have some citizen emigrate, it's not a citizen's duty to fix the country they happened to have been born into. It's like expecting every successful black person to dedicate all their time and resources to "fix the black community" - they have every right to do whatever they wish with their lives just like anyone else. OP is welcome to go to India and try to fix poverty there if they'd like, leaving behind western comforts & privileges.
  - humanrebar 11y ago
    Why would anyone do anything for their community with that attitude? If I were a moderately successful 70-year-old with that attitude, I'd blow my money on vacations or cars before I died instead of leaving money to parks, schools, or starting a scholarship fund.
    - ido 11y ago
      Which is your right. If you want to do anything for yours or any other community, go ahead! I personally feel no greater obligation to help other Jews (I happen to be Jewish) than I do to help any other ethnicity in any other country. And just by the happenstance that I happen to have been born in 1 country (in which I no longer live) I feel no stronger obligation to mark that country as my community rather than another.
- nilkn 11y ago
  To play devil's advocate... > It alleviates the problem of the (often) explosive population growth Is 0.1% of the population leaving really enough to actually help with this? I'm pretty skeptical of that. As for your other points, it seems that they all could easily be countered by pointing out the extreme "brain drain" that countries like India are experiencing -- the 0.1% that they're losing are some of the most talented and educated members of their society. That can't be good for them.
MagicWishMonkey 11y ago
Yea someone should totally press that magic button to fix all of the things wrong with Indian society. That's a realistic way to look at things.
deleted 11y ago
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RobertoG 11y ago

Well yes. If we can do that, I totally agree. But, is that politically possible? I would vote for serious resource investment in a plan for finishing the world poverty but I suspect it's not in the program of the political parties. We prefer to organize military operations ¿!??, like the current European one against the "mafias" that "exploit" the Libyan illegal immigrants, instead of facing the roots of the problem.

icebraining 11y ago

letting 0,1% of people in third-world countries come and enjoy good things does nothing for their society in a long run Sure it does. It alleviates the problem of the (often) explosive population growth, it brings in billions of dollars in remittances, and it allows future returnees to come with education and work experience which is, if not better, at least different from what the origin country provides. There's a nice example in this week's TAL episode, regarding Kaiser Kuo, the American-born son of Chinese immigrants who "brought rock and roll to China" (by being one of the founders of Tang Dynasty). I think it's clear that the immigration of his parents was essential for his accomplishments.

guard-of-terra 11y ago
Taking away 0,1% of people sure doesn't solve the problem of population growth, it's statistically insignificant. Your other points stand, but only if donor society is in relatively good shape. Indian emigrants may help India but I doubt Somalian or Libyan emigrants help countries they fled.
- ido 11y ago
  Why don't you move to Somalia or Libya and try your best to help them? The pure accident of chance that someone was born in one country and you were born in another does not change your or their obligation to either country. We are only beholden to our own actions, not those of our ancestors or people who carry the same passport as us.
  - guard-of-terra 11y ago
    "We are only beholden to our own actions" That's now how the world works now, and the only way to get what you declare is fixing all the countries and uniting Earth.
    - ido 11y ago
      You are welcome to pursue fixing the world. Doesn't change my opinion that an Indian/Somali/whatever has the same right to a life of comfort as you, since they didn't choose to be born where they did and neither did you.
      - guard-of-terra 11y ago
        Do they also have right to money already in my wallet? Because, rights and privileges (for example, developed country social safety net) is a kind of capital.
        ido 11y ago
        Despite having the good fortune of being born into quite significant privilege (I'm a white, tall, straight guy born to middle class parents in a western country - if anyone has been playing life on the easiest difficulty level it's me) I'm actually a socialist & believe in income redistribution (choosing to live in Germany has something to do with it - it's much more of a socialist welfare state with high taxes & wealth redistribution than the country I was born in - I would have been making more money and paying less taxes if I stayed there). Obviously we can't completely equalize the playing field (like tall, good looking people getting better opportunities etc), but I do think we should do as much as we practically can. That's why yes, I do think we should strive for open borders even though it will be significantly non-beneficial to me as a birth-lottery winner. Although practically I think it will only work out if all or almost all countries will open their borders at the same time, to prevent 100s of millions of people moving into any single country at once. I don't think this will happen in my life time but I sure hope it does. And on a more concrete note - if I'll have a chance of helping someone from a poor country come to Germany e.g. via offering them employment/visa sponsorship - I will prefer doing that compared to hiring a local.
ido 11y ago
Even if it would have been better off for country X to not have some citizen emigrate, it's not a citizen's duty to fix the country they happened to have been born into. It's like expecting every successful black person to dedicate all their time and resources to "fix the black community" - they have every right to do whatever they wish with their lives just like anyone else. OP is welcome to go to India and try to fix poverty there if they'd like, leaving behind western comforts & privileges.
- humanrebar 11y ago
  Why would anyone do anything for their community with that attitude? If I were a moderately successful 70-year-old with that attitude, I'd blow my money on vacations or cars before I died instead of leaving money to parks, schools, or starting a scholarship fund.
  - ido 11y ago
    Which is your right. If you want to do anything for yours or any other community, go ahead! I personally feel no greater obligation to help other Jews (I happen to be Jewish) than I do to help any other ethnicity in any other country. And just by the happenstance that I happen to have been born in 1 country (in which I no longer live) I feel no stronger obligation to mark that country as my community rather than another.
nilkn 11y ago
To play devil's advocate... > It alleviates the problem of the (often) explosive population growth Is 0.1% of the population leaving really enough to actually help with this? I'm pretty skeptical of that. As for your other points, it seems that they all could easily be countered by pointing out the extreme "brain drain" that countries like India are experiencing -- the 0.1% that they're losing are some of the most talented and educated members of their society. That can't be good for them.

MagicWishMonkey 11y ago

Yea someone should totally press that magic button to fix all of the things wrong with Indian society. That's a realistic way to look at things.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]