7 ms·

I like the old school dogma underlying the whole thing. Russia is bad, private enterprise is good, the US wants to put weapons in space, and Michael Jackson is

I like the old school dogma underlying the whole thing. Russia is bad, private enterprise is good, the US wants to put weapons in space, and Michael Jackson is rocking the world with Thriller.

smanuel 11y ago
> Russia is bad Putin's Russia is bad.
- nraynaud 11y ago
  Yeah, Putin, Andropov, Chernenko, same stuff.
  - yc1010 11y ago
    Not really. I was born and lived during the dying days of the USSR in 80s (left in mid 90s) Under communism everyone knew the system was a failure and everything was a sham, hell the jokes being made were hilarious. Now on the other hand in last few years everything in Russia under Tsar Putin went full retard mode with people actually believing the unashamed propaganda that the state controlled media puts out. Many Russians do not speak anything but Russian and can not afford to leave the country to get a look from outside the box in, this means they buy into the nationalistic bullshit being doled out on tv. People there now actually believe the evil Western boogeyman is out to get them. Which in itself is incredibly scary. Talking to some of my relatives I know understand how some Germans must have felt in the 30s in run up to WW2. In the 80s the KGB was kept out of politics for most part and the Russian military was there to keep in check any ambitions they had. Now the State was taken over by a mix of KGB / criminal mafia elements and the military had its balls cut off. Nationalism and borderline fascism is the order of the day 70 years after the war. My grandfather must be spinning in his grave.
    - varjag 11y ago
      Indeed, in late USSR, the power rested on subtle balance between Party, KGB and Army elites. Now the Party has been eliminated, and KGB subjugated the Army. If you follow the developments of Russian WW2 themed motion pictures you'll notice the corresponding shift. Nearly every movie now features an NKVD or covert ops protagonist. Action TV series are also largely about cloak and dagger types.
      - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
        This is a little much. Putin has great PR, but the reality is that he's in an ugly position considering the level of corruption he's encouraged and the dismal economy he now leads (2% shrink this quarter alone with many large firms unable for find financing due to sanctions). His foreign policy has only emboldened a previously declining NATO and set strict sanctions on Russia that no one wants to lift. Russians aren't stupid, they know this guy can't deliver the gravy train any longer and just like 1991 caught us by surprise we'll probably see a surprise change of leadership when enough parties are fed up. Putin's move towards a North Korean style government isn't from a position of strength, but a position of weakness. Its a desperate move from a desperate regime.
    - shit_parade2 11y ago
      doesn't sound different from the US. People believe the unashamed media propaganda, few speak anything besides English, many can't afford to leave, people believe the evil east is out to get them. In the 80s the NSA kept out of politics for most part... But now the state is taken over by a miz of NSA and criminal corporate-military-financial entities. Nationalism and borderline Fascism is the order of the day. We've been at continuous war for over 14 years.
      - soperj 11y ago
        Not to mention the whole "Greatest country on earth".
      - simonh 11y ago
        Comments like this depress me. It's like saying a matchstick is the same as a tree because they are both made of wood. Theres no real way to engage with a comment like that.
        yc1010 11y ago
        "The US is no different or infact worse" is a typical argument used to justify various Putinite wrongdoings and deflect discussion. Just go to /r/worldnews for a taste on reddit. * Russia aggressively annexing its neighbors? Hey look over there at the US and Middle East * Russia curbing various freedoms and opposition? Sure the US is a 2 party system where there is no hope for change. * Putin gaining complete control of the media? Sure in the US the media is all run by same companies. And so on, the best lies are those sprinkled with a small grain of truth as the saying goes...
        shit_parade2 11y ago
        >* Russia curbing various freedoms and opposition? Sure the US is a 2 party system where there is no hope for change. Now this comment depresses me. Why not compare the us patriot act or civil forfeiture, or the wide spread illegal 4th amendment breaking mass surveillance program a whistle blower had to reveal (who incidentally lives in Russia now). Then you use the phrase hope and change, is that satire, a man became president lying with that platform slogan. How about including torture, indefinite imprisonment without trial, or kill lists to show how the US also has erroded civil liberties? How much more comic book evil does the American empire need to become before people stop defending it with 'Russia and China are worse', maybe they are, but its a sad pissing match to ask if Mao or Hilter was the worst 20th dictator, both men caused tremendous amounts of Human misery. Why do people want to defend a military that has killed hundreds if thousands of civilians? How morally bankrupt are the techies of hacker news.
    - foobarqux 11y ago
      > People there now actually believe the evil Western boogeyman is out to get them. Even Henry Kissinger believes their fears to be well-founded.
      - samstave 11y ago
        To be fair, Kissenger is a notorious warmonger and his whole goal is fomenting tensions.
    - stcredzero 11y ago
      Now on the other hand in last few years everything in Russia under Tsar Putin went full retard mode with people actually believing the unashamed propaganda that the state controlled media puts out. Nationalism > Communism Solidarity with the working man is nothing compared to the integrity of the Russian nation and her borders. Nationalism and borderline fascism is the order of the day 70 years after the war. My grandfather must be spinning in his grave. The core of the "Great Patriotic War" was nationalism. No one really fights for an idea. Everyone starts fighting to protect their home, and keeps fighting for the sake of their brothers in arms.
  - smanuel 11y ago
    Same stuff in 21st century is not ok.
gexla 11y ago
The article doesn't go into much detail. In this case, Russia is "bad" because of the uncertainty of the relationship relying on something so important to be considered national interests. The decision to develop rockets at home was made around the time when someone in Russia made a comment to the effect of "maybe they should use trampolines to get into space."
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  This. If this article was about China or Russia doing something to get off a US product or service, HN would be cheering. When the US protects its own interests, especially its world class space programs, suddenly the tone turns towards, "EVIL US NOT PLAYING NICE!" Sadly, that narrative is upvote heaven here on HN.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    As far as I can tell, what's upvote heaven is complaining about how nonexistent bad comments get lots of upvotes. I don't see any comments in this thread that meet your description, while the top is mostly comments explaining why this move makes sense. There are quite a few kneejerk "the US is evil" comments, but it's not about playing nice, it's about thinking the US government is the devil and SpaceX is sullied by the association. I don't see any comments saying the US should just keep buying Russian engines.
  - nraynaud 11y ago
    It's not like they couldn't buy lifts onboard other NATO countries rockets, but I guess the US people don't know there are more than Russia and the US who can send rockets. Also, this paranoid stance is mildly worrying, because the US is the most weaponized country in the world, and one of the least shy country to use its arsenal, so if it also get a paranoid stance "all the world hate us", then we're all doomed.
    - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
      >It's not like they couldn't buy lifts onboard other NATO countries rockets There is no NATO country, other than the US, with a manned space program. We don't live in a universe where the ESA's Hermes spacecraft worked out. I believe the Ariane 5 was supposed to be man-rated when Hermes was on the table, but going from that to a usable launch vehicle is a lot of time, money, and engineering work we could spend on our own system(s). I have no idea if its possible to retro-fit man-rated safety onto the existing Ariane design. So 5 years out to Orion/SLS and Dragon/SpaceX or 5 years out to some beat up and already badly aging ESA manned system the American tax payer would be on the hook for, and a system that could never leave LEO. The SLS is designed for non-LEO manned missions like the moon, nearby asteroids, and in its highest configuration - Mars. Lastly, the ESA was welcome to bid in NASA's COTS program, but decided not to. Maybe take up your beef with them. I imagine they aren't remotely cost competitive.
drzaiusapelord 11y ago
>Russia is bad, private enterprise is good Considering Putin is playing politics with space, namely limiting critical RD-180 sales after the west criticized his illegal annexation of parts of Ukraine, as well as funding and arming rebels who are purposely targeting civilians, well, what exactly do you want us to say here? Engage in more mindless political correctness? Sing kumbaya around the campfire as to not offend Russiophile HN'ers? Putin's Russia is bad. They're dishonest partners and the US should keep its space policy under its national borders for sanity reasons. Look at the early retirement of the ISS. Russia is taking its modules and leaving the project in a few years, again as punishing the west for criticizing their illegal annexations. Previous to this the ISS was thought to be a project with a decade or two of service left. Also, Putin's mismanagement of his economy means he just cut the Russian space program by a third and what's left is good at flying Soviet-era Soyuz and building Soviet era RD-180's but can't keep post-Soviet Proton-M's from exploding. From a practical stand-point, ignoring everything else, we simply don't need or want their tech now that the RD-180 based rockets are being made redundant/replaced and Orion/Dragon flying astronauts in the next 3 or so years.
- nraynaud 11y ago
  the US invaded Iraq, and kill people everywhere in the world on a regular basis too, overthrow governments, helps dictators and lie to people all the time. Nobody gets ahead when you only look for scapegoats and with Manichaeism as a policy. We are bringing back the world into the 20st century, this will be a big problem.
  - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
    That's fine, you are very welcome not to buy our rockets, iphones, software, and processors if you want to protest our foreign policy. We're not buying Putin's stuff, so don't buy ours. I don't see a problem with this. >overthrow governments The middle east is migrating to democracy and has the least amount of dictators in charge in my lifetime, thanks to US foreign policy. While I think foriegn policy is hard to judge, annexing land Russia-style for "fuck you" reasons is very different than overthrowing dictators murdering their people and those people begging for US/NATO/UN intervention, which we sometimes provide. The world tried non-interventionism and it got us WWII. Better the US/NATO making these calls than autocratic powers with annexation agendas like China or Russia.

I like the old school dogma underlying the whole thing. Russia is bad, private enterprise is good, the US wants to put weapons in space, and Michael Jackson is rocking the world with Thriller.

smanuel 11y ago

> Russia is bad Putin's Russia is bad.

nraynaud 11y ago
Yeah, Putin, Andropov, Chernenko, same stuff.
- yc1010 11y ago
  Not really. I was born and lived during the dying days of the USSR in 80s (left in mid 90s) Under communism everyone knew the system was a failure and everything was a sham, hell the jokes being made were hilarious. Now on the other hand in last few years everything in Russia under Tsar Putin went full retard mode with people actually believing the unashamed propaganda that the state controlled media puts out. Many Russians do not speak anything but Russian and can not afford to leave the country to get a look from outside the box in, this means they buy into the nationalistic bullshit being doled out on tv. People there now actually believe the evil Western boogeyman is out to get them. Which in itself is incredibly scary. Talking to some of my relatives I know understand how some Germans must have felt in the 30s in run up to WW2. In the 80s the KGB was kept out of politics for most part and the Russian military was there to keep in check any ambitions they had. Now the State was taken over by a mix of KGB / criminal mafia elements and the military had its balls cut off. Nationalism and borderline fascism is the order of the day 70 years after the war. My grandfather must be spinning in his grave.
  - varjag 11y ago
    Indeed, in late USSR, the power rested on subtle balance between Party, KGB and Army elites. Now the Party has been eliminated, and KGB subjugated the Army. If you follow the developments of Russian WW2 themed motion pictures you'll notice the corresponding shift. Nearly every movie now features an NKVD or covert ops protagonist. Action TV series are also largely about cloak and dagger types.
    - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
      This is a little much. Putin has great PR, but the reality is that he's in an ugly position considering the level of corruption he's encouraged and the dismal economy he now leads (2% shrink this quarter alone with many large firms unable for find financing due to sanctions). His foreign policy has only emboldened a previously declining NATO and set strict sanctions on Russia that no one wants to lift. Russians aren't stupid, they know this guy can't deliver the gravy train any longer and just like 1991 caught us by surprise we'll probably see a surprise change of leadership when enough parties are fed up. Putin's move towards a North Korean style government isn't from a position of strength, but a position of weakness. Its a desperate move from a desperate regime.
  - shit_parade2 11y ago
    doesn't sound different from the US. People believe the unashamed media propaganda, few speak anything besides English, many can't afford to leave, people believe the evil east is out to get them. In the 80s the NSA kept out of politics for most part... But now the state is taken over by a miz of NSA and criminal corporate-military-financial entities. Nationalism and borderline Fascism is the order of the day. We've been at continuous war for over 14 years.
    - soperj 11y ago
      Not to mention the whole "Greatest country on earth".
    - simonh 11y ago
      Comments like this depress me. It's like saying a matchstick is the same as a tree because they are both made of wood. Theres no real way to engage with a comment like that.
      - yc1010 11y ago
        "The US is no different or infact worse" is a typical argument used to justify various Putinite wrongdoings and deflect discussion. Just go to /r/worldnews for a taste on reddit. * Russia aggressively annexing its neighbors? Hey look over there at the US and Middle East * Russia curbing various freedoms and opposition? Sure the US is a 2 party system where there is no hope for change. * Putin gaining complete control of the media? Sure in the US the media is all run by same companies. And so on, the best lies are those sprinkled with a small grain of truth as the saying goes...
        shit_parade2 11y ago
        >* Russia curbing various freedoms and opposition? Sure the US is a 2 party system where there is no hope for change. Now this comment depresses me. Why not compare the us patriot act or civil forfeiture, or the wide spread illegal 4th amendment breaking mass surveillance program a whistle blower had to reveal (who incidentally lives in Russia now). Then you use the phrase hope and change, is that satire, a man became president lying with that platform slogan. How about including torture, indefinite imprisonment without trial, or kill lists to show how the US also has erroded civil liberties? How much more comic book evil does the American empire need to become before people stop defending it with 'Russia and China are worse', maybe they are, but its a sad pissing match to ask if Mao or Hilter was the worst 20th dictator, both men caused tremendous amounts of Human misery. Why do people want to defend a military that has killed hundreds if thousands of civilians? How morally bankrupt are the techies of hacker news.
  - foobarqux 11y ago
    > People there now actually believe the evil Western boogeyman is out to get them. Even Henry Kissinger believes their fears to be well-founded.
    - samstave 11y ago
      To be fair, Kissenger is a notorious warmonger and his whole goal is fomenting tensions.
  - stcredzero 11y ago
    Now on the other hand in last few years everything in Russia under Tsar Putin went full retard mode with people actually believing the unashamed propaganda that the state controlled media puts out. Nationalism > Communism Solidarity with the working man is nothing compared to the integrity of the Russian nation and her borders. Nationalism and borderline fascism is the order of the day 70 years after the war. My grandfather must be spinning in his grave. The core of the "Great Patriotic War" was nationalism. No one really fights for an idea. Everyone starts fighting to protect their home, and keeps fighting for the sake of their brothers in arms.
- smanuel 11y ago
  Same stuff in 21st century is not ok.

gexla 11y ago

The article doesn't go into much detail. In this case, Russia is "bad" because of the uncertainty of the relationship relying on something so important to be considered national interests. The decision to develop rockets at home was made around the time when someone in Russia made a comment to the effect of "maybe they should use trampolines to get into space."

drzaiusapelord 11y ago
This. If this article was about China or Russia doing something to get off a US product or service, HN would be cheering. When the US protects its own interests, especially its world class space programs, suddenly the tone turns towards, "EVIL US NOT PLAYING NICE!" Sadly, that narrative is upvote heaven here on HN.
- mikeash 11y ago
  As far as I can tell, what's upvote heaven is complaining about how nonexistent bad comments get lots of upvotes. I don't see any comments in this thread that meet your description, while the top is mostly comments explaining why this move makes sense. There are quite a few kneejerk "the US is evil" comments, but it's not about playing nice, it's about thinking the US government is the devil and SpaceX is sullied by the association. I don't see any comments saying the US should just keep buying Russian engines.
- nraynaud 11y ago
  It's not like they couldn't buy lifts onboard other NATO countries rockets, but I guess the US people don't know there are more than Russia and the US who can send rockets. Also, this paranoid stance is mildly worrying, because the US is the most weaponized country in the world, and one of the least shy country to use its arsenal, so if it also get a paranoid stance "all the world hate us", then we're all doomed.
  - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
    >It's not like they couldn't buy lifts onboard other NATO countries rockets There is no NATO country, other than the US, with a manned space program. We don't live in a universe where the ESA's Hermes spacecraft worked out. I believe the Ariane 5 was supposed to be man-rated when Hermes was on the table, but going from that to a usable launch vehicle is a lot of time, money, and engineering work we could spend on our own system(s). I have no idea if its possible to retro-fit man-rated safety onto the existing Ariane design. So 5 years out to Orion/SLS and Dragon/SpaceX or 5 years out to some beat up and already badly aging ESA manned system the American tax payer would be on the hook for, and a system that could never leave LEO. The SLS is designed for non-LEO manned missions like the moon, nearby asteroids, and in its highest configuration - Mars. Lastly, the ESA was welcome to bid in NASA's COTS program, but decided not to. Maybe take up your beef with them. I imagine they aren't remotely cost competitive.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

>Russia is bad, private enterprise is good Considering Putin is playing politics with space, namely limiting critical RD-180 sales after the west criticized his illegal annexation of parts of Ukraine, as well as funding and arming rebels who are purposely targeting civilians, well, what exactly do you want us to say here? Engage in more mindless political correctness? Sing kumbaya around the campfire as to not offend Russiophile HN'ers? Putin's Russia is bad. They're dishonest partners and the US should keep its space policy under its national borders for sanity reasons. Look at the early retirement of the ISS. Russia is taking its modules and leaving the project in a few years, again as punishing the west for criticizing their illegal annexations. Previous to this the ISS was thought to be a project with a decade or two of service left. Also, Putin's mismanagement of his economy means he just cut the Russian space program by a third and what's left is good at flying Soviet-era Soyuz and building Soviet era RD-180's but can't keep post-Soviet Proton-M's from exploding. From a practical stand-point, ignoring everything else, we simply don't need or want their tech now that the RD-180 based rockets are being made redundant/replaced and Orion/Dragon flying astronauts in the next 3 or so years.

nraynaud 11y ago
the US invaded Iraq, and kill people everywhere in the world on a regular basis too, overthrow governments, helps dictators and lie to people all the time. Nobody gets ahead when you only look for scapegoats and with Manichaeism as a policy. We are bringing back the world into the 20st century, this will be a big problem.
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  That's fine, you are very welcome not to buy our rockets, iphones, software, and processors if you want to protest our foreign policy. We're not buying Putin's stuff, so don't buy ours. I don't see a problem with this. >overthrow governments The middle east is migrating to democracy and has the least amount of dictators in charge in my lifetime, thanks to US foreign policy. While I think foriegn policy is hard to judge, annexing land Russia-style for "fuck you" reasons is very different than overthrowing dictators murdering their people and those people begging for US/NATO/UN intervention, which we sometimes provide. The world tried non-interventionism and it got us WWII. Better the US/NATO making these calls than autocratic powers with annexation agendas like China or Russia.