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I've been following Patrick for many years here on HN. Many people have. So many of the things you've written in this thread are wrong, and even worse, incredib

by edanm 11y ago

I've been following Patrick for many years here on HN. Many people have. So many of the things you've written in this thread are wrong, and even worse, incredibly mean or mean-spirited. This comment is for anyone else who might not have been around HN a long time, and isn't sure what's going on here. Here's the rub - Patrick is a very well known member of this community, has helped an incredible amount of people, and over the last few years has had a lot of success in consulting and building products. I'm not sure if the parent (irrigation) is "just trolling" or sincerely believes that Patrick is lying about his success (and although irrigation doesn't say so in this comment, irrigation clearly claims that Patrick is lying in other comments). irrigation - if you really think Patrick is lying, then remember that he's been around these forums (and others!) for many years, many people here know him personally, the engagements he's had have been with other very well known companies - are they all lying? Or is Patrick just somehow manipulating everyone to make these incredible claims, by somehow getting engagements with well known companies, writing about them, the companies themselves writing about them, but he's manipulating all the numbers? And all this multi-year effort is for what? To market a startup that has nothing to do with his main expertise anyway? Seriously, that is really ridiculous.

irrigation 11y ago
if you really think Patrick is lying I have never said that he is lying. I have implied that the situation might be aggrandized/exaggerated, or a very atypical one-off, absolutely. I disagree with it as any sort of wisdom or example for 99.999% of consultants. Say I am a gigolo and my rate is $100,000 per night. That is my "rack rate". My rate last year was $75,000 per night, and the year before it was $50,000 per night, but I really wanted to maximize my beautiful years. I've decided to hang up the gigolo hat and focus on cooking, because I'm a passionate chef. I'm opening a restaurant, and you should visit. That isn't a lie (okay the cook/restaurant part is): If a woman offered me $100,000 per night, I'd probably be okay with that situation. And you know I probably would have been good with $75K last year, and $50K the year before. Of course, zero women have paid me for my services, but still that's my rate if they did. If I start writing a "Pricing Yourself As A Gigolo" series, however, some people will rightly call me on it. It has no bearing on reality, and is of no service to anyone. Now you claim that there's all sort of evidence of these $10K, $20K, $30K, $40K per week engagements. There is none. Absolutely none, beyond a cofounder and a serial booster who suddenly claims to have lots of experience being a consumer of consultants. There is nobody writing about their consulting engagement, and indeed that whole aspect was left incredibly vague (random undefined privately owned companies that you probably haven't heard of). To make it even more dubious, someone claiming those sorts of rates is naturally going to turn away pretty much every prospective client (again -- if they started Facebook or Skype or something, maybe. Being the person behind BCC and a high-karma HN account isn't as lucrative), so it's pretty convenient that these rates appear when he claims that he isn't interested in consulting anymore. An individual consultant with as little reputation as patio11 (people really conflate HN fame for real fame, reminding me of that kid on Reddit whose mother called him "sort of a big deal"), may, as I mentioned, have lucked into an incredibly rare engagement where they were overpaid, and there is no way I can say that couldn't have happened, but there is absolutely no way, in this universe, that they can demand $30K per week without getting a laugh from the overwhelming majority of clients. I'm not sure if the parent (irrigation) is "just trolling" I have wasted far too much time on this topic (though I'm starting to feel like I wandered into a group of people discussing why "The Secret" is the cure for all things), however the "troll" bit grows tiring. Just as rationally, I can declare that I'm not sure if you're "just shilling".
- edanm 11y ago
  "Just as rationally, I can declare that I'm not sure if you're "just shilling". Fair enough. I apologize, and will continue answering assuming you're talking in good faith. "I have never said that he is lying. I have implied that the situation might be aggrandized/exaggerated, or a very atypical one-off, absolutely." Patrick has explicitly said it wasn't a one off, and stated very explicit rates. So if you are implying that this isn't true, I'm not sure how that isn't implying he's lying. (And I will point out that many of the people in this thread also think you are calling him a liar - rationally speaking, if the way you communicate leads a lot of people to a misunderstanding of your statement, I suggest that you might want to change something). But let's not quibble over semantics. I'm fine calling it "exaggerating" if you prefer, and I'd argue just as strongly that he isn't exaggerating. "Now you claim that there's all sort of evidence of these $10K, $20K, $30K, $40K per week engagements. There is none. Absolutely none, beyond a cofounder and a serial booster who suddenly claims to have lots of experience being a consumer of consultants." So, Thomas being Patrick's partner is very new. He was for many years the head of a company, during which time he also said he hired Patrick. Again, this was long before they worked together. You can verify that Thomas' company existed, and was acquired, here: http://www.csoonline.com/article/2135259/security-leadership/ncc-group-acquires-matasano-security.html http://www.csoonline.com/article/2135259/security-leadership... I'm also not sure what a "serial booster" is in your statement, I'll be happy if you can clarify. I can't explicitly prove the engagement rates, but if you want an example of a very well known and respectable company that explicitly talks about Patrick being their consultant, you can read Patrick's article on Fog Creek Software's blog, which starts: "Editor’s Note: Patrick McKenzie has done some work with Fog Creek last October and this May, focusing on improving our marketing." http://blog.fogcreek.com/our-marketing-is-up-fog-creek-and-what-we-did-about-it/ http://blog.fogcreek.com/our-marketing-is-up-fog-creek-and-w... Again, all I'm saying is, rationally speaking, lets look at the evidence - despite your protestations about Thomas being Patrick's partner, this is a very new development. Thomas has been talking about Patrick for years, and verifies Patrick's rate. Thomas is verifiably the owner of a consultancy that was acquired, also making him able to verify those rates. Fog Creek, a large software company, also talks about Patrick working for them. That's another verificaiton that he's worked with these kinds of customers (not verification of the rate, though). By the way, Patrick didn't "suddenly" talk about these rates - he's been talking about charging at least $10k per week for a few years, but only recently mentioned the specific prices. Here's a question - what would it take to convince you that Patrick is not exaggerating? Cause at least from where I'm standing, it looks like all the evidence points in one direction. This is without even looking at the fact that lots of other well known members of the community have met and talked with Patrick, and vouch for his honesty and his methods. Also not looking at the ton of content which a lot of people have used to better themselves. For the record, I also owned a consultancy, which was acquired by a large company. I didn't charge Patrick's rates, but I have no doubt they are achievable (in certain lines of work, mind you).

by edanm 11y ago

irrigation 11y ago

if you really think Patrick is lying I have never said that he is lying. I have implied that the situation might be aggrandized/exaggerated, or a very atypical one-off, absolutely. I disagree with it as any sort of wisdom or example for 99.999% of consultants. Say I am a gigolo and my rate is $100,000 per night. That is my "rack rate". My rate last year was $75,000 per night, and the year before it was $50,000 per night, but I really wanted to maximize my beautiful years. I've decided to hang up the gigolo hat and focus on cooking, because I'm a passionate chef. I'm opening a restaurant, and you should visit. That isn't a lie (okay the cook/restaurant part is): If a woman offered me $100,000 per night, I'd probably be okay with that situation. And you know I probably would have been good with $75K last year, and $50K the year before. Of course, zero women have paid me for my services, but still that's my rate if they did. If I start writing a "Pricing Yourself As A Gigolo" series, however, some people will rightly call me on it. It has no bearing on reality, and is of no service to anyone. Now you claim that there's all sort of evidence of these $10K, $20K, $30K, $40K per week engagements. There is none. Absolutely none, beyond a cofounder and a serial booster who suddenly claims to have lots of experience being a consumer of consultants. There is nobody writing about their consulting engagement, and indeed that whole aspect was left incredibly vague (random undefined privately owned companies that you probably haven't heard of). To make it even more dubious, someone claiming those sorts of rates is naturally going to turn away pretty much every prospective client (again -- if they started Facebook or Skype or something, maybe. Being the person behind BCC and a high-karma HN account isn't as lucrative), so it's pretty convenient that these rates appear when he claims that he isn't interested in consulting anymore. An individual consultant with as little reputation as patio11 (people really conflate HN fame for real fame, reminding me of that kid on Reddit whose mother called him "sort of a big deal"), may, as I mentioned, have lucked into an incredibly rare engagement where they were overpaid, and there is no way I can say that couldn't have happened, but there is absolutely no way, in this universe, that they can demand $30K per week without getting a laugh from the overwhelming majority of clients. I'm not sure if the parent (irrigation) is "just trolling" I have wasted far too much time on this topic (though I'm starting to feel like I wandered into a group of people discussing why "The Secret" is the cure for all things), however the "troll" bit grows tiring. Just as rationally, I can declare that I'm not sure if you're "just shilling".

edanm 11y ago
"Just as rationally, I can declare that I'm not sure if you're "just shilling". Fair enough. I apologize, and will continue answering assuming you're talking in good faith. "I have never said that he is lying. I have implied that the situation might be aggrandized/exaggerated, or a very atypical one-off, absolutely." Patrick has explicitly said it wasn't a one off, and stated very explicit rates. So if you are implying that this isn't true, I'm not sure how that isn't implying he's lying. (And I will point out that many of the people in this thread also think you are calling him a liar - rationally speaking, if the way you communicate leads a lot of people to a misunderstanding of your statement, I suggest that you might want to change something). But let's not quibble over semantics. I'm fine calling it "exaggerating" if you prefer, and I'd argue just as strongly that he isn't exaggerating. "Now you claim that there's all sort of evidence of these $10K, $20K, $30K, $40K per week engagements. There is none. Absolutely none, beyond a cofounder and a serial booster who suddenly claims to have lots of experience being a consumer of consultants." So, Thomas being Patrick's partner is very new. He was for many years the head of a company, during which time he also said he hired Patrick. Again, this was long before they worked together. You can verify that Thomas' company existed, and was acquired, here: http://www.csoonline.com/article/2135259/security-leadership/ncc-group-acquires-matasano-security.html http://www.csoonline.com/article/2135259/security-leadership... I'm also not sure what a "serial booster" is in your statement, I'll be happy if you can clarify. I can't explicitly prove the engagement rates, but if you want an example of a very well known and respectable company that explicitly talks about Patrick being their consultant, you can read Patrick's article on Fog Creek Software's blog, which starts: "Editor’s Note: Patrick McKenzie has done some work with Fog Creek last October and this May, focusing on improving our marketing." http://blog.fogcreek.com/our-marketing-is-up-fog-creek-and-what-we-did-about-it/ http://blog.fogcreek.com/our-marketing-is-up-fog-creek-and-w... Again, all I'm saying is, rationally speaking, lets look at the evidence - despite your protestations about Thomas being Patrick's partner, this is a very new development. Thomas has been talking about Patrick for years, and verifies Patrick's rate. Thomas is verifiably the owner of a consultancy that was acquired, also making him able to verify those rates. Fog Creek, a large software company, also talks about Patrick working for them. That's another verificaiton that he's worked with these kinds of customers (not verification of the rate, though). By the way, Patrick didn't "suddenly" talk about these rates - he's been talking about charging at least $10k per week for a few years, but only recently mentioned the specific prices. Here's a question - what would it take to convince you that Patrick is not exaggerating? Cause at least from where I'm standing, it looks like all the evidence points in one direction. This is without even looking at the fact that lots of other well known members of the community have met and talked with Patrick, and vouch for his honesty and his methods. Also not looking at the ton of content which a lot of people have used to better themselves. For the record, I also owned a consultancy, which was acquired by a large company. I didn't charge Patrick's rates, but I have no doubt they are achievable (in certain lines of work, mind you).