4 ms·

Android 2.x was not better than Firefox OS 2.x IMHO. I have them all here and I really enjoy the Flame running 2.x, it was my primary smartphone until February.

by soapdog 11y ago

Android 2.x was not better than Firefox OS 2.x IMHO. I have them all here and I really enjoy the Flame running 2.x, it was my primary smartphone until February. One don't need HTML5 at 60fps. One need HTML5 apps that work. Movies are not 60fps. The only place where you need 60fps is games and that type of game is not the objective of the devices you've seen running Firefox OS. What is needed is quality HTML5 apps. The old Pre2 and Pre3 webOS devices had some pretty amazing HTML5 apps. The usability was great even if the phone slowed sometimes. UX is better than FPS. Usability trumps benchmarks. The problem is when you code for the high-end place of the spectrum with evergreen browsers and stuff and try to shoehorn that into a phone. thats when misery happens. Instead of reading a review from written by someone used to high-end devices and ubiquitous networking. Look for those people in India and South America who are buying Firefox OS devices as their first smartphone because they couldn't afford a higher-end device. Look for their feedback. Many are accessing the web on a personal device for the first time. Its a life transforming opportunity once the doors to the vast knowledge repository of the web is open. I can go on for hours on where Firefox OS shines but I will not bore you. Just don't try to compare it against Android and iOS devices, that was never the objective.

veeti 11y ago
> One don't need HTML5 at 60fps. The only place where you need 60fps is games and that type of game is not the objective of the devices you've seen running Firefox OS. Smooth response is absolutely essential for touch usability. Without it, you can not have any sort of precision on an already imprecise input method. To achieve this, you really do need to near 60 frames per second. When the simplest list (let alone a complex web page) constantly trails behind your finger and has to catch up with rendering, it becomes very difficult to find what you're looking for. It's crucial that what happens on screen is connected to what you're doing, or you have to constantly try and consciously correct for the software that just can't keep up. A budget phone doesn't need to match the latest and greatest iPhone 6 in smoothness, but there is a baseline performance that has to be met for usability. > Many are accessing the web on a personal device for the first time... just don't try to compare it against Android and iOS devices, that was never the objective. If you actually read the review I linked, it turns out the $35 phone is practically worthless for any web browsing or just about anything. And once you go past that price point, FxOS has competition. Android One and low-end OEM's like Micromax already provide devices that are years ahead in performance, usability and functionality.
- nashashmi 11y ago
  > Smooth response is absolutely essential for touch usability. Without it, you can not have any sort of precision on an already imprecise input method. To achieve this, you really do need to near 60 frames per second. I would love to see mobile devices that are not touch based. Touch requires a very high premium on performance. Buttons would have worked wonders. For a FirefoxOS phone where it is Gen 1, the start should have been a button phone and every developer would be required to create an interface that would work well with buttons.
  - rpcope1 11y ago
    Yes, I personally would love to get back to having real tactile buttons. It feels sort of crazy that your only choice any more is a touch screen--I think there might be a market in higher end devices without a touch screen too.
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    I swear a month or two back there was some indication that Mozilla partners were considering putting FFOS on flip and slider phones.
- fabrice_d 11y ago
  Android One is $100. Please don't compare them with a $35 device.
bionsuba 11y ago
> UX is better than FPS. Usability trumps benchmarks. fps is part of UX. Your comment is akin to saying that when typesetting a book, the font size doesn't matter, the paper quality does. Each element is important and pretending that they are mutually exclusive makes no sense. The only conclusion I can draw from your comment is that you have never done user or A/B testing with sub 30fps apps. Having a sub 30fps app means that your app is literally half as responsive as the vast majority of smart phone and desktop software, and the user can always, always tell. They won't use the words "frames per second", but what they will say is "Your app feels slow." Try scrolling down a list of items on a Firefox OS vs a iPhone 6 and tell me which one has the better UX.
- soapdog 11y ago
  fps is not a part of UX for all apps. Usability needs to take into consideration the hardware features available. If you're running on 1 ARM CPU with 128mb of RAM with no graphics hardware acceleration whatsoever and you need to present hundreds items to the user such as a contact list and you know the hardware can't cope with scrolling large tall DOM elemements then you opt to use some flyweight pattern or you simply paginate the damn thing. Don't do the scrolling, offer another way to peruse the data. You can't approach low-spec hardware with UX and solutions from high-end devices. Remember progressive enhancement. Also the phrase: Try scrolling down a list of items on a Firefox OS vs a iPhone 6 and tell me which one has the better UX. Is silly. Firefox OS was not created to compete with the iPhone. We're talking about low-specs in here. If you're making this comparison then I would suggest that you look on the objectives of Firefox OS and the devices available. They are not similar to iPhone. The fact that people think that the epitome of UX is "fast scrolling lists" or fps shows what is wrong with this industry. UX is how you get a positive user experience given the constraints you have and not how to squeeze every single fps out of every single computing core. If you're in a low-spec device, you restrict animation and scrolling tall elements. You pre-cache and pre-render whatever you can. You find another UI scheme to use besides "hamburger menu + scrolling tall thing". Don't mix fps to how responsive your app is. fps is how fast it can blit stuff to screen, thats not the same as how fast it can handle user input. The A/B Testing helps with creating the UI for low-specs.
darklajid 11y ago
I agree. Flame owner here. I'd use that thing a lot more, if the applications were usable. I don't care about 'smooth', neither fancy. My constant complains are the keyboard, the lack of push support, the lack of a decent mail client (which .. needs push support. And server-side searches!) etc. are the real issues. Heck, even browsing is bad on a FxOS device. I don't think it's the paradigm that is to blame here. The problem is the state of things, not the foundation as far as I'm concerned. (Was a WebOS fan myself. That stuff was amazing for its time)

by soapdog 11y ago

veeti 11y ago

> One don't need HTML5 at 60fps. The only place where you need 60fps is games and that type of game is not the objective of the devices you've seen running Firefox OS. Smooth response is absolutely essential for touch usability. Without it, you can not have any sort of precision on an already imprecise input method. To achieve this, you really do need to near 60 frames per second. When the simplest list (let alone a complex web page) constantly trails behind your finger and has to catch up with rendering, it becomes very difficult to find what you're looking for. It's crucial that what happens on screen is connected to what you're doing, or you have to constantly try and consciously correct for the software that just can't keep up. A budget phone doesn't need to match the latest and greatest iPhone 6 in smoothness, but there is a baseline performance that has to be met for usability. > Many are accessing the web on a personal device for the first time... just don't try to compare it against Android and iOS devices, that was never the objective. If you actually read the review I linked, it turns out the $35 phone is practically worthless for any web browsing or just about anything. And once you go past that price point, FxOS has competition. Android One and low-end OEM's like Micromax already provide devices that are years ahead in performance, usability and functionality.

nashashmi 11y ago
> Smooth response is absolutely essential for touch usability. Without it, you can not have any sort of precision on an already imprecise input method. To achieve this, you really do need to near 60 frames per second. I would love to see mobile devices that are not touch based. Touch requires a very high premium on performance. Buttons would have worked wonders. For a FirefoxOS phone where it is Gen 1, the start should have been a button phone and every developer would be required to create an interface that would work well with buttons.
- rpcope1 11y ago
  Yes, I personally would love to get back to having real tactile buttons. It feels sort of crazy that your only choice any more is a touch screen--I think there might be a market in higher end devices without a touch screen too.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  I swear a month or two back there was some indication that Mozilla partners were considering putting FFOS on flip and slider phones.
fabrice_d 11y ago
Android One is $100. Please don't compare them with a $35 device.

bionsuba 11y ago

> UX is better than FPS. Usability trumps benchmarks. fps is part of UX. Your comment is akin to saying that when typesetting a book, the font size doesn't matter, the paper quality does. Each element is important and pretending that they are mutually exclusive makes no sense. The only conclusion I can draw from your comment is that you have never done user or A/B testing with sub 30fps apps. Having a sub 30fps app means that your app is literally half as responsive as the vast majority of smart phone and desktop software, and the user can always, always tell. They won't use the words "frames per second", but what they will say is "Your app feels slow." Try scrolling down a list of items on a Firefox OS vs a iPhone 6 and tell me which one has the better UX.

soapdog 11y ago
fps is not a part of UX for all apps. Usability needs to take into consideration the hardware features available. If you're running on 1 ARM CPU with 128mb of RAM with no graphics hardware acceleration whatsoever and you need to present hundreds items to the user such as a contact list and you know the hardware can't cope with scrolling large tall DOM elemements then you opt to use some flyweight pattern or you simply paginate the damn thing. Don't do the scrolling, offer another way to peruse the data. You can't approach low-spec hardware with UX and solutions from high-end devices. Remember progressive enhancement. Also the phrase: Try scrolling down a list of items on a Firefox OS vs a iPhone 6 and tell me which one has the better UX. Is silly. Firefox OS was not created to compete with the iPhone. We're talking about low-specs in here. If you're making this comparison then I would suggest that you look on the objectives of Firefox OS and the devices available. They are not similar to iPhone. The fact that people think that the epitome of UX is "fast scrolling lists" or fps shows what is wrong with this industry. UX is how you get a positive user experience given the constraints you have and not how to squeeze every single fps out of every single computing core. If you're in a low-spec device, you restrict animation and scrolling tall elements. You pre-cache and pre-render whatever you can. You find another UI scheme to use besides "hamburger menu + scrolling tall thing". Don't mix fps to how responsive your app is. fps is how fast it can blit stuff to screen, thats not the same as how fast it can handle user input. The A/B Testing helps with creating the UI for low-specs.

darklajid 11y ago

I agree. Flame owner here. I'd use that thing a lot more, if the applications were usable. I don't care about 'smooth', neither fancy. My constant complains are the keyboard, the lack of push support, the lack of a decent mail client (which .. needs push support. And server-side searches!) etc. are the real issues. Heck, even browsing is bad on a FxOS device. I don't think it's the paradigm that is to blame here. The problem is the state of things, not the foundation as far as I'm concerned. (Was a WebOS fan myself. That stuff was amazing for its time)