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I read a lot of hate for open offices on Hacker News, but I don't think it's as simple as "open offices are bad." Last year my startup moved into our first offi

I read a lot of hate for open offices on Hacker News, but I don't think it's as simple as "open offices are bad." Last year my startup moved into our first office and I did an informal survey of the team (who had previously been working from their respective homes) about whether they'd prefer their main desks to be in private offices or an open room, and the winner was the open office. My point isn't that open offices are better. But some people clearly prefer them, and I think this community would benefit from a more nuanced discussion about when an open office is better vs. when private rooms are better. This article takes a step in that direction by pointing out that some open layouts are better than others, but the author also makes it pretty clear that he never thinks an open office is a good thing. The world is rarely so black and white.

smileysteve 11y ago
Different people may prefer different setups (the grey), but science is pretty black and white on the issue, open offices increase sick days http://blogs.wsj.com/atwork/2014/02/25/study-open-offices-are-making-us-all-sick/ http://blogs.wsj.com/atwork/2014/02/25/study-open-offices-ar...
- the_bear 11y ago
  I don't think that most companies are designing their offices entirely around sick days. It seems likely that you could find a number of areas where open offices look statistically better, and a number of areas where they look worse. It also seems likely to me that open offices are more likely to be poorly executed than private rooms (there's a lot more rope to hang yourself with). That's all the more reason for us to have more nuanced discussions about it. As an example, most people on HN are singularly focused on what makes for a good office for programmers. My startup is made up mostly of non-programmers, and all programmers are allowed to work remotely. So basically, my goals might not be the same as yours, and one-size-fits-all advice is too simplistic. Another example: In our office everyone's primary desk is in the open workspace, but we also have enough private rooms that 100% of our team can work from those at the same time if they want. So no one has to work from the open office, and yet most people choose to. I'd guess that open offices are viewed much more favorably when they're not the only option.
  - tjradcliffe 11y ago
    -> It seems likely that you could find a number of areas where open offices look statistically better, and a number of areas where they look worse. To make this claim convincing you're going to have to come up with some data. For developers, the data show clearly open offices are productivity killers. Some people may like them, but that doesn't make those people more productive. So what are the areas where open offices plausibly improve business function? Employee retention? This is possible, as some people clearly have a preference for them, but based on comments in this and other threads the people who hate them hate the a lot, while the people who like them aren't nearly so zealous. Productivity? The data show this is clearly not the case. "Communication"? I put this in quotes because I'm not sure what it means, although it gets touted as a benefit of open offices. Private offices and short meetings with small numbers of people result in good communications within and across teams, and I'm not sure what barrier to communication is imposed by being unable to interrupt the person three desks over (and distract everyone in between) that can't be solved by a simple messenger app. Scalability? Almost by definition open offices don't scale. Maybe opponents of open offices should start hitting on this idea hard: "Your architecture scales, why doesn't your workplace?"
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - smileysteve 11y ago
    > Another example: In our office everyone's primary desk is in the open workspace, but we also have enough private rooms that 100% of our team can work from those at the same time if they want. So no one has to work from the open office, and yet most people choose to. I'd guess that open offices are viewed much more favorably when they're not the only option. I've also read (I can't find the source) that one of the issues with open offices is the less personified work space. The decorations at your desk, the photos on the short walls of your cube, your chair settings all make you feel more at home. The more "open" your office is you lose this. Your anecdote could lead the conclusion that you drew, but I'm not sure that it does.
    - madcaptenor 11y ago
frostmatthew 11y ago
> some people clearly prefer them There's also plenty of people that clearly don't prefer them - but even for the ones that do studies have consistently shown that open office layouts are terrible for productivity. If the purpose of a workplace is to be a place where people work something that increases productivity probably shouldn't be so easily dismissed.
- mc32 11y ago
  I think there are also a number of people who say they prefer open offices because they don't want to appear to buck the accepted cool trend. It's like when you ask a child if she'd like to share toys with her cousins. She's expected to say yes, and if she does say no, the parents will remind her she's supposed to be nice and share. So it's not really a choice, it's an appearance of choice.
analog31 11y ago
Unfortunately, while we talk about nuances and shades of gray, management has taken a clear black-and-white stance, which that we will have open offices, period, with no consideration for the issues mentioned in the article. At my workplace, management is in love with open offices. The HR director spoke in glowing terms about another division of the company, where the entire workplace is one great big open office from end to end. The managers all agree that the open office improves "collaboration." A danger to watch out for is that all management initiatives are successful by default. The open offices have been declared to be a success. My desk is a face-to-face next to a hallway. I get interrupted every few minutes by people looking for my colleagues: "Is Alice in today? What time does she usually come in?" "Do you know where Bob hides?" "Is Cathy still in her meeting?" If somebody comes to ask me a question, my face-to-face colleague joins the conversation and dominates it. Something that's helped me a lot is Portable Apps. I can have all of my apps and data on a pocket size hard drive, walk out of my office, plug it into any computer anywhere, and get to work.
- Menge 11y ago
  Portable Apps is an interesting idea, thanks! On the matter of open offices being a pre-declared success, I think they are also a bit of a j-curve or "google brain" phenomenon where leaving the open office environment becomes a stressful proposition. Junior workers stay more dependent and become afraid of not having a source of immediate answers that really holds them back from proper growth and self confidence.
pasbesoin 11y ago
It's anecdote, but I've worked in a number of large, corporate environments interacting with a large number of employees. Across that experience, the most intelligent and productive coworkers I've encountered have also been those who prefer a private workspace and the ability to selectively focus without undue interruptions. They -- we -- are not anti-social people. Many are also some of the most effective in professional interaction. That includes coming to meetings prepared and being able to define problems and solutions in e.g. half the scheduled meeting time. It includes being able to independently assess and prioritize requests, including being flexible enough to do now what needs to be done, sometimes at the drop of a hat, while also putting off some of the "how do I...?" interruptions in a fashion that quitely prompts people to do their own reading and research of readily available materials before interrupting others' workflow. Those who have professed a preference for open space plans, including e.g. one of our moves from offices to cubettes (not even enough walls to be a real cubicle)? Well, in large part, those have been the people in endless meetings and constantly "communicating", but whose actual thinking and work I and others like me are constantly correcting. Maybe that sounds arrogant. But it's true. When you repeatedly receive completed work and find large holes in it within the first five minutes of your attention, something is wrong... This is just anecdote. But, for me, it spans multiple decades at multiple locations and large number of professional relationships.
qwer 11y ago
I agree. I've worked on small highly collaborative teams for the last 10 years and any time we're not in the same room, it's annoyingly and obviously less productive. I'm sure that the productivity studies are not taking this kind of work style into consideration. Anyone who says this is a black and white issue and science has revealed the truth has somehow overlooked the long history of failed attempts at trying to measure productivity of software development teams (Most of which confuse activity with progress). There's quite a lot more to programming than how many hours of uninterrupted typing you have.
pan69 11y ago
A lot of hate probably comes from programmers, not so much from visual designers. There is a big difference between doing left-brain and right-brain type of work. I'm a programmer and when I do visual type work, e.g. HTML/CSS I don't mind sitting in an open space. I can easily concentrate on what I'm doing. However, when I'm doing algorithmic type work and I need to juggle ten different problems in short term memory I certainly want peace and quiet so I can concentrate. Many companies can easily solve the problem by have a "loud" and "quiet" space, but most companies simply choose not to.
- collyw 11y ago
  I have had similar feelings, though I would replace "left / right brain" with "hard" and "easy" stuff. Can't do the hard stuff when there are a ton of people talking around me.
Grue3 11y ago
>I did an informal survey of the team (who had previously been working from their respective homes) about whether they'd prefer their main desks to be in private offices or an open room, and the winner was the open office. I think it's a case of peer pressure. Nobody wants to be seen as the anti-team-spirit guy who wants to work in their office alone. But deep in their heart I bet all of them wanted a private office.
- collyw 11y ago
  I have experiences in both. My previous job I started in the office at the side, and felt a bit left out when I could hear everyone laughing in the main open plan office next door. I moved in to the main office eventually. My current job, when I started I shared a largish office with one other girl. This was perfect in my opinion. If we wanted to be social, we could speak to each other. If we wanted to get on with work we could. Now the organization has grown and we are 4 squeezed into the same office. The space isn't the issue, its when people come in to discuss things. One person in the office is involved in the conversation, but it ends up affecting everyone sitting there.

smileysteve 11y ago

Different people may prefer different setups (the grey), but science is pretty black and white on the issue, open offices increase sick days http://blogs.wsj.com/atwork/2014/02/25/study-open-offices-are-making-us-all-sick/ http://blogs.wsj.com/atwork/2014/02/25/study-open-offices-ar...

the_bear 11y ago
I don't think that most companies are designing their offices entirely around sick days. It seems likely that you could find a number of areas where open offices look statistically better, and a number of areas where they look worse. It also seems likely to me that open offices are more likely to be poorly executed than private rooms (there's a lot more rope to hang yourself with). That's all the more reason for us to have more nuanced discussions about it. As an example, most people on HN are singularly focused on what makes for a good office for programmers. My startup is made up mostly of non-programmers, and all programmers are allowed to work remotely. So basically, my goals might not be the same as yours, and one-size-fits-all advice is too simplistic. Another example: In our office everyone's primary desk is in the open workspace, but we also have enough private rooms that 100% of our team can work from those at the same time if they want. So no one has to work from the open office, and yet most people choose to. I'd guess that open offices are viewed much more favorably when they're not the only option.
- tjradcliffe 11y ago
  -> It seems likely that you could find a number of areas where open offices look statistically better, and a number of areas where they look worse. To make this claim convincing you're going to have to come up with some data. For developers, the data show clearly open offices are productivity killers. Some people may like them, but that doesn't make those people more productive. So what are the areas where open offices plausibly improve business function? Employee retention? This is possible, as some people clearly have a preference for them, but based on comments in this and other threads the people who hate them hate the a lot, while the people who like them aren't nearly so zealous. Productivity? The data show this is clearly not the case. "Communication"? I put this in quotes because I'm not sure what it means, although it gets touted as a benefit of open offices. Private offices and short meetings with small numbers of people result in good communications within and across teams, and I'm not sure what barrier to communication is imposed by being unable to interrupt the person three desks over (and distract everyone in between) that can't be solved by a simple messenger app. Scalability? Almost by definition open offices don't scale. Maybe opponents of open offices should start hitting on this idea hard: "Your architecture scales, why doesn't your workplace?"
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- smileysteve 11y ago
  > Another example: In our office everyone's primary desk is in the open workspace, but we also have enough private rooms that 100% of our team can work from those at the same time if they want. So no one has to work from the open office, and yet most people choose to. I'd guess that open offices are viewed much more favorably when they're not the only option. I've also read (I can't find the source) that one of the issues with open offices is the less personified work space. The decorations at your desk, the photos on the short walls of your cube, your chair settings all make you feel more at home. The more "open" your office is you lose this. Your anecdote could lead the conclusion that you drew, but I'm not sure that it does.
  - madcaptenor 11y ago

frostmatthew 11y ago

> some people clearly prefer them There's also plenty of people that clearly don't prefer them - but even for the ones that do studies have consistently shown that open office layouts are terrible for productivity. If the purpose of a workplace is to be a place where people work something that increases productivity probably shouldn't be so easily dismissed.

mc32 11y ago
I think there are also a number of people who say they prefer open offices because they don't want to appear to buck the accepted cool trend. It's like when you ask a child if she'd like to share toys with her cousins. She's expected to say yes, and if she does say no, the parents will remind her she's supposed to be nice and share. So it's not really a choice, it's an appearance of choice.

analog31 11y ago

Unfortunately, while we talk about nuances and shades of gray, management has taken a clear black-and-white stance, which that we will have open offices, period, with no consideration for the issues mentioned in the article. At my workplace, management is in love with open offices. The HR director spoke in glowing terms about another division of the company, where the entire workplace is one great big open office from end to end. The managers all agree that the open office improves "collaboration." A danger to watch out for is that all management initiatives are successful by default. The open offices have been declared to be a success. My desk is a face-to-face next to a hallway. I get interrupted every few minutes by people looking for my colleagues: "Is Alice in today? What time does she usually come in?" "Do you know where Bob hides?" "Is Cathy still in her meeting?" If somebody comes to ask me a question, my face-to-face colleague joins the conversation and dominates it. Something that's helped me a lot is Portable Apps. I can have all of my apps and data on a pocket size hard drive, walk out of my office, plug it into any computer anywhere, and get to work.

Menge 11y ago
Portable Apps is an interesting idea, thanks! On the matter of open offices being a pre-declared success, I think they are also a bit of a j-curve or "google brain" phenomenon where leaving the open office environment becomes a stressful proposition. Junior workers stay more dependent and become afraid of not having a source of immediate answers that really holds them back from proper growth and self confidence.

pasbesoin 11y ago

It's anecdote, but I've worked in a number of large, corporate environments interacting with a large number of employees. Across that experience, the most intelligent and productive coworkers I've encountered have also been those who prefer a private workspace and the ability to selectively focus without undue interruptions. They -- we -- are not anti-social people. Many are also some of the most effective in professional interaction. That includes coming to meetings prepared and being able to define problems and solutions in e.g. half the scheduled meeting time. It includes being able to independently assess and prioritize requests, including being flexible enough to do now what needs to be done, sometimes at the drop of a hat, while also putting off some of the "how do I...?" interruptions in a fashion that quitely prompts people to do their own reading and research of readily available materials before interrupting others' workflow. Those who have professed a preference for open space plans, including e.g. one of our moves from offices to cubettes (not even enough walls to be a real cubicle)? Well, in large part, those have been the people in endless meetings and constantly "communicating", but whose actual thinking and work I and others like me are constantly correcting. Maybe that sounds arrogant. But it's true. When you repeatedly receive completed work and find large holes in it within the first five minutes of your attention, something is wrong... This is just anecdote. But, for me, it spans multiple decades at multiple locations and large number of professional relationships.

qwer 11y ago

I agree. I've worked on small highly collaborative teams for the last 10 years and any time we're not in the same room, it's annoyingly and obviously less productive. I'm sure that the productivity studies are not taking this kind of work style into consideration. Anyone who says this is a black and white issue and science has revealed the truth has somehow overlooked the long history of failed attempts at trying to measure productivity of software development teams (Most of which confuse activity with progress). There's quite a lot more to programming than how many hours of uninterrupted typing you have.

pan69 11y ago

A lot of hate probably comes from programmers, not so much from visual designers. There is a big difference between doing left-brain and right-brain type of work. I'm a programmer and when I do visual type work, e.g. HTML/CSS I don't mind sitting in an open space. I can easily concentrate on what I'm doing. However, when I'm doing algorithmic type work and I need to juggle ten different problems in short term memory I certainly want peace and quiet so I can concentrate. Many companies can easily solve the problem by have a "loud" and "quiet" space, but most companies simply choose not to.

collyw 11y ago
I have had similar feelings, though I would replace "left / right brain" with "hard" and "easy" stuff. Can't do the hard stuff when there are a ton of people talking around me.

Grue3 11y ago

>I did an informal survey of the team (who had previously been working from their respective homes) about whether they'd prefer their main desks to be in private offices or an open room, and the winner was the open office. I think it's a case of peer pressure. Nobody wants to be seen as the anti-team-spirit guy who wants to work in their office alone. But deep in their heart I bet all of them wanted a private office.

collyw 11y ago
I have experiences in both. My previous job I started in the office at the side, and felt a bit left out when I could hear everyone laughing in the main open plan office next door. I moved in to the main office eventually. My current job, when I started I shared a largish office with one other girl. This was perfect in my opinion. If we wanted to be social, we could speak to each other. If we wanted to get on with work we could. Now the organization has grown and we are 4 squeezed into the same office. The space isn't the issue, its when people come in to discuss things. One person in the office is involved in the conversation, but it ends up affecting everyone sitting there.