5 ms·

Philip Zimmermann's fears for privacy

74 points by sasvari 11y ago

java-man 11y ago
"Today, email can be routinely and automatically scanned for interesting keywords, on a vast scale, without detection. This is like driftnet fishing." -- Phil Zimmermann, 1991
- StavrosK 11y ago
  This is why I'm for any attempt to encryption that makes such large-scale surveillance hard. It doesn't have to be perfect (although it should also not be marketed as perfect), but things like encrypting all connections, opportunistically encrypting communications, and everything else that would require someone to actively tap an endpoint, rather than just tap any backbone random router, still does a lot of good for privacy. Do it, just don't call it "secure" ("secure" to me means person-to-person secure).
  - lisper 11y ago
    Would love to get your feedback on this then: https://github.com/Spark-Innovations/SC4 https://github.com/Spark-Innovations/SC4
    - StavrosK 11y ago
      I've never seen it before, I'll investigate when I get home, but it looks great at a first glance. PGP does need a bit of an update, at least from an implementation perspective, in my opinion.
      - lisper 11y ago
        > I've never seen it before Yeah, it's new :-) I'm recruiting beta testers.
        StavrosK 11y ago
        Hmm, the demo doesn't work for me, but this looks like a great idea. I'll agree with the other commenter, that I can't trust my browser as much as I can trust my OS, but I understand that this is just a proof of concept.
        lisper 11y ago
        It doesn't??? It should. Can you please tell me what browser you're using, and what symptoms you're seeing? (Feel free to send it to the email address listed on the github page if you don't want to clutter up this comment thread.) [UPDATE] Should be fixed now.
        StavrosK 11y ago
        Sorry for being so vague, I figured you'd see the problem immediately: The link just 404s: https://sc4.us/sc4.html https://sc4.us/sc4.html Feel free to email me, my email is in my profile. I also toyed with the idea of implementing something like this with TweetNaCl, so props to you for actually going through with it.
        lisper 11y ago
        Oops! Changed the server config a while back but forgot to update the link in the readme. Try it now. (The correct link is https://sc4.us/sc4 https://sc4.us/sc4 )
        StavrosK 11y ago
        That works, thanks. As far as I can see, there's not much glue code between TweetNaCl and the browser. Have you thought of writing/porting this to something like Python? Making it a command-line utility or a library might make adoption easier.
        lisper 11y ago
    - ryukafalz 11y ago
      The fact that it's meant to be run in a browser is somewhat concerning. HTTPS is... okay... but for a GPG replacement I wouldn't really want to be dependent on the CA system or a remote server.
      - lisper 11y ago
        Two responses: 1. You can run it on your own server, and you can run it from a FILE: URL (though that part is still work in progress). 2. This implementation is not the only one there will ever be. The goal of this implementation is just to make something that non-technical people can easily use in order to establish the (open) file interchange protocol. Then anyone who wants to can write native clients, email plugins, etc.
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  >startling prediction of the mass surveillance methods that were eventually adopted by the NSA after 9/11 Except Carnivore was known about well before that. Not sure why everyone is pretending this is all new.
  - amyjess 11y ago
    And Echelon and Room 641A were widely known before Snowden. And when the Boston Bombers struck (not long before Snowden), the public was complaining about "How did the government not stop them before they did it? They see everything on the Internet!". People were pointing out that the government couldn't do anything because they were just two guys who didn't talk about it on the Internet, not because the government wasn't watching.
marincounty 11y ago
"Today, his biggest worry is not software backdoors, but the petabytes (1m gigabytes) of information being hoarded by the likes of Google and Facebook. “If you collect all that data, it becomes an attractive nuisance. It’s kind of a siren calling out inviting someone to come and try to get it. Governments say that if private industry can have it, why can’t our intelligence agencies have it?” I am hoping if enough people stop using these two services; they might start deleting information permanently? I know Google is hard to give up, but I don't think they need to keep everything. As to Facebook, I can't see any reason, other than business, as to why they keep every bit of information we put up there--forever.
- Zigurd 11y ago
  Keep in mind that not using Facebook or Google is a bit like not having a Social Security number. Totally possible, but a gratuitous red flag. It's better to poison the data beast than to try to starve it.
  - throwawayaway 11y ago
    what about not using the internet, is that a red flag too?
zmanian 11y ago
Switzerland is mostly a privacy snake oil in regards to the coercive powers of various legal authorities. Your executives, investors etc are all subject to US law. Swiss law isn't going to protect users. Switzerland might be a reasonable place to stage civil disobedience from. Phil has credibility in that regard. Would love to see a statement from Silent Circle comparable to Least Authority's https://tahoe-lafs.org/pipermail/tahoe-dev/2010-October/005353.html https://tahoe-lafs.org/pipermail/tahoe-dev/2010-October/0053...
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  Most of Silent Circle is marketing, as far as I can tell. The ZRTP stuff is great, as voice verification is easy (spoofing it is hard). But the rest? They talk about secure PSTN, but they are just using VoIP AFAIK (even if they had TDM handoffs, a ton of traffic goes over random VoIP providers anyways.) But that aside - there is no such thing as secure PSTN (outside of things like PGPfone). What benefit is there versus using a VPN and any random VoIP provider? Maybe they keep less CDRs, and if you use no calling number, that'd be a little better, I guess. Hell, try to explain what this even means: "Our Silent Network provides the backbone to our encrypted communications service. There's no sharing of our dedicated network. We have custom-built servers, CODECs, software and hardware that ensure security integrated through design" Custom built servers? Like what, they assembled Super Micro servers or FB's server spec? Or what? 100% dedicated network? They ran fiber? Or they mean they bought some Ethernet switches instead of using AWS or some colo's switches? And new codecs? I guess it's possible but if they've outdone all the other audio codecs out there, that's worth taking about concretely. Not to mention that's a huge breakthrough, on top of the crypto work. (Or do they mean ZRTP is the custom built codec?) Seriously everyone: go to this page[1] and tell me if your BS meter doesn't redline. Custom built PBX? Does that mean FreeSWITCH or Asterisk, or something else? If it is one of the open source systems, where are the CVEs they've found and upstreamed? Custom built HD network? Wtf does that even mean? And Blackphone? Last I saw it on HN, it was a closed source system, zero mention of baseband processor security. I thought it was Android based, with a few apps thrown in but I don't recall offhand. SC has some great tech guys and the people I've met seem nice and sincere and I've no doubt they are acting in good faith. But the stuff their CEO and marketers say make it come off very scammy. 1: https://silentcircle.com/silent-network https://silentcircle.com/silent-network
comrade1 11y ago
The last time I looked into it, all SilentCircle had was a small sales office in the French part. No engineering, marketing, etc... just a secretary and a sales guy. I'd be surprised if they move anything substantial besides their servers to Switzerland. It's increasingly difficult for non-europeans to get residence permits here. I doubt Phil, Jon Callas, etc are anywhere near Switzerland, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. As for Switzerland being a 'privacy snakeoil', that's wrong. Privacy rules (especially financial) are strict and followed by the government, unlike in the u.s. There are definitely surveillance operations, for example, the satellite communication program that uncovered the CIA rendition programs, but these are mostly directly outward.
- zmanian 11y ago
  Unless your policy is that your executives can be arrested, your assets seized and your investors pressured and still you will resist, operating out of a privacy friendly jurisdiction offers no reasonable protections to your users. Now you can do some clever stuff like setup your software update mechanisms so that updates require a signature from a independently minded individual in a privacy friendly jurisdiction that might offer more effective user protections.
- JshWright 11y ago
  Phil spends almost all his time in Geneva at this point (obviously excepting travel for conferences, etc).
  - comrade1 11y ago
    That's great. However, it still looks like it's just a sales office based on sc's job board. I'd be curious to know if he got residency but I know you probably can't answer that. Without residency he can only spend 90 days in ch every 6 months.
    - JshWright 11y ago
      I don't know about his official residency status. I do know that he spends enough time on the road for conferences, etc, that it is possible that half of every 6 months works for him... As far as who is in the office there... Any office we have is a sales office. All of our tech/engineering folks are remote, and spread all around the world.

74 points by sasvari 11y ago

"Today, email can be routinely and automatically scanned for interesting keywords, on a vast scale, without detection. This is like driftnet fishing." -- Phil Zimmermann, 1991

StavrosK 11y ago
This is why I'm for any attempt to encryption that makes such large-scale surveillance hard. It doesn't have to be perfect (although it should also not be marketed as perfect), but things like encrypting all connections, opportunistically encrypting communications, and everything else that would require someone to actively tap an endpoint, rather than just tap any backbone random router, still does a lot of good for privacy. Do it, just don't call it "secure" ("secure" to me means person-to-person secure).
- lisper 11y ago
  Would love to get your feedback on this then: https://github.com/Spark-Innovations/SC4 https://github.com/Spark-Innovations/SC4
  - StavrosK 11y ago
    I've never seen it before, I'll investigate when I get home, but it looks great at a first glance. PGP does need a bit of an update, at least from an implementation perspective, in my opinion.
    - lisper 11y ago
      > I've never seen it before Yeah, it's new :-) I'm recruiting beta testers.
      - StavrosK 11y ago
        Hmm, the demo doesn't work for me, but this looks like a great idea. I'll agree with the other commenter, that I can't trust my browser as much as I can trust my OS, but I understand that this is just a proof of concept.
        lisper 11y ago
        It doesn't??? It should. Can you please tell me what browser you're using, and what symptoms you're seeing? (Feel free to send it to the email address listed on the github page if you don't want to clutter up this comment thread.) [UPDATE] Should be fixed now.
        StavrosK 11y ago
        Sorry for being so vague, I figured you'd see the problem immediately: The link just 404s: https://sc4.us/sc4.html https://sc4.us/sc4.html Feel free to email me, my email is in my profile. I also toyed with the idea of implementing something like this with TweetNaCl, so props to you for actually going through with it.
        lisper 11y ago
        Oops! Changed the server config a while back but forgot to update the link in the readme. Try it now. (The correct link is https://sc4.us/sc4 https://sc4.us/sc4 )
        StavrosK 11y ago
        That works, thanks. As far as I can see, there's not much glue code between TweetNaCl and the browser. Have you thought of writing/porting this to something like Python? Making it a command-line utility or a library might make adoption easier.
        lisper 11y ago
  - ryukafalz 11y ago
    The fact that it's meant to be run in a browser is somewhat concerning. HTTPS is... okay... but for a GPG replacement I wouldn't really want to be dependent on the CA system or a remote server.
    - lisper 11y ago
      Two responses: 1. You can run it on your own server, and you can run it from a FILE: URL (though that part is still work in progress). 2. This implementation is not the only one there will ever be. The goal of this implementation is just to make something that non-technical people can easily use in order to establish the (open) file interchange protocol. Then anyone who wants to can write native clients, email plugins, etc.
MichaelGG 11y ago
>startling prediction of the mass surveillance methods that were eventually adopted by the NSA after 9/11 Except Carnivore was known about well before that. Not sure why everyone is pretending this is all new.
- amyjess 11y ago
  And Echelon and Room 641A were widely known before Snowden. And when the Boston Bombers struck (not long before Snowden), the public was complaining about "How did the government not stop them before they did it? They see everything on the Internet!". People were pointing out that the government couldn't do anything because they were just two guys who didn't talk about it on the Internet, not because the government wasn't watching.

marincounty 11y ago

"Today, his biggest worry is not software backdoors, but the petabytes (1m gigabytes) of information being hoarded by the likes of Google and Facebook. “If you collect all that data, it becomes an attractive nuisance. It’s kind of a siren calling out inviting someone to come and try to get it. Governments say that if private industry can have it, why can’t our intelligence agencies have it?” I am hoping if enough people stop using these two services; they might start deleting information permanently? I know Google is hard to give up, but I don't think they need to keep everything. As to Facebook, I can't see any reason, other than business, as to why they keep every bit of information we put up there--forever.

Zigurd 11y ago
Keep in mind that not using Facebook or Google is a bit like not having a Social Security number. Totally possible, but a gratuitous red flag. It's better to poison the data beast than to try to starve it.
- throwawayaway 11y ago
  what about not using the internet, is that a red flag too?

zmanian 11y ago

Switzerland is mostly a privacy snake oil in regards to the coercive powers of various legal authorities. Your executives, investors etc are all subject to US law. Swiss law isn't going to protect users. Switzerland might be a reasonable place to stage civil disobedience from. Phil has credibility in that regard. Would love to see a statement from Silent Circle comparable to Least Authority's https://tahoe-lafs.org/pipermail/tahoe-dev/2010-October/005353.html https://tahoe-lafs.org/pipermail/tahoe-dev/2010-October/0053...

MichaelGG 11y ago
Most of Silent Circle is marketing, as far as I can tell. The ZRTP stuff is great, as voice verification is easy (spoofing it is hard). But the rest? They talk about secure PSTN, but they are just using VoIP AFAIK (even if they had TDM handoffs, a ton of traffic goes over random VoIP providers anyways.) But that aside - there is no such thing as secure PSTN (outside of things like PGPfone). What benefit is there versus using a VPN and any random VoIP provider? Maybe they keep less CDRs, and if you use no calling number, that'd be a little better, I guess. Hell, try to explain what this even means: "Our Silent Network provides the backbone to our encrypted communications service. There's no sharing of our dedicated network. We have custom-built servers, CODECs, software and hardware that ensure security integrated through design" Custom built servers? Like what, they assembled Super Micro servers or FB's server spec? Or what? 100% dedicated network? They ran fiber? Or they mean they bought some Ethernet switches instead of using AWS or some colo's switches? And new codecs? I guess it's possible but if they've outdone all the other audio codecs out there, that's worth taking about concretely. Not to mention that's a huge breakthrough, on top of the crypto work. (Or do they mean ZRTP is the custom built codec?) Seriously everyone: go to this page[1] and tell me if your BS meter doesn't redline. Custom built PBX? Does that mean FreeSWITCH or Asterisk, or something else? If it is one of the open source systems, where are the CVEs they've found and upstreamed? Custom built HD network? Wtf does that even mean? And Blackphone? Last I saw it on HN, it was a closed source system, zero mention of baseband processor security. I thought it was Android based, with a few apps thrown in but I don't recall offhand. SC has some great tech guys and the people I've met seem nice and sincere and I've no doubt they are acting in good faith. But the stuff their CEO and marketers say make it come off very scammy. 1: https://silentcircle.com/silent-network https://silentcircle.com/silent-network

comrade1 11y ago

The last time I looked into it, all SilentCircle had was a small sales office in the French part. No engineering, marketing, etc... just a secretary and a sales guy. I'd be surprised if they move anything substantial besides their servers to Switzerland. It's increasingly difficult for non-europeans to get residence permits here. I doubt Phil, Jon Callas, etc are anywhere near Switzerland, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. As for Switzerland being a 'privacy snakeoil', that's wrong. Privacy rules (especially financial) are strict and followed by the government, unlike in the u.s. There are definitely surveillance operations, for example, the satellite communication program that uncovered the CIA rendition programs, but these are mostly directly outward.

zmanian 11y ago
Unless your policy is that your executives can be arrested, your assets seized and your investors pressured and still you will resist, operating out of a privacy friendly jurisdiction offers no reasonable protections to your users. Now you can do some clever stuff like setup your software update mechanisms so that updates require a signature from a independently minded individual in a privacy friendly jurisdiction that might offer more effective user protections.
JshWright 11y ago
Phil spends almost all his time in Geneva at this point (obviously excepting travel for conferences, etc).
- comrade1 11y ago
  That's great. However, it still looks like it's just a sales office based on sc's job board. I'd be curious to know if he got residency but I know you probably can't answer that. Without residency he can only spend 90 days in ch every 6 months.
  - JshWright 11y ago
    I don't know about his official residency status. I do know that he spends enough time on the road for conferences, etc, that it is possible that half of every 6 months works for him... As far as who is in the office there... Any office we have is a sales office. All of our tech/engineering folks are remote, and spread all around the world.