4 ms·

I'm a PM at Microsoft and this post hits close to home. I think there are a good number of PMs that you're talking about. It's easy for the PM role to evolve in

I'm a PM at Microsoft and this post hits close to home. I think there are a good number of PMs that you're talking about. It's easy for the PM role to evolve into pure politics because our job is to represent the customer. Just like our government's politicians sometimes claim to represent the people and end up making selfish decisions, PMs aren't immune from that weakness. The role attracts people who are good at politics, so you tend to see a high concentration there. Why do I still do the role? Well, it kind of fits what I wanted to do for a living. I always enjoyed doing lots of diversity in my job and trying all kinds of new technologies out. I get to be a customer for a living. I try out our product and think about where I want it to go. I can be annoying (a real customer would probably be a bit annoying sometimes too, they challenge your product and your hard worked design). I get to care for a living. As an engineer, I could see myself needing to let things go because it's gotta get out the door. As a PM, I know a customer is going to hit that issue and I need to get it in front of people so we can fix it. I'm building applications using our technology and competitors and technology not obviously related just to see if could be relevant. The problems with PMs vs Engineers is that it is super hard to tell a good PM from a bad PM who is good at politics; but I'm still super happy the role exists. I'd likely have to become an evangelist to do the things I do everyday still, but I'd have less influence with the engineers and it'd often be reactive if I wasn't on the product team. To any people considering a job as a PM, do me and your other future customers a favor and ask if you can care more about your customer than having your job or being promoted? I've held fast to the notion that customers are why I'm here and my career hasn't been too bad so far, management still recognizes good work with customers. But if it all goes to hell, I can always find some other job and be happy with myself.

melted 11y ago
>> if you can care more about your customer than >> having your job or being promoted The honest answer to that is "no" 100% of the time, for any rational person. Anyone who says otherwise is either stupid, or trying to BS you, or both. Simply put, incentives should align to desired outcomes, otherwise you get the outcomes your incentives _do_ align with.
- crandycodes 11y ago
  I'm still naive enough to believe there is more than money out of a job. I really do like making new products and having people like them. There is always another opportunity out there. Microsoft has rewarded me pretty dang well so far, but if I ever get stuck with a bad boss or some stagnation career-wise, I'll find a place where I can do what I love and be rewarded for it. Rewards do tend to go towards good PMs and such, but it's easy to find yourself in a bad spot. Can't let the game play you.
  - melted 11y ago
    I'm not saying there isn't more in a job. I'm just saying that setting things up so that "more" is mutually exclusive with "money" is a piss poor way of doing it. These things can and should coincide. Once they do not, it's time to move on.
    - marvy 11y ago
      It seems you two are actually in agreement
antocv 11y ago
How can you live with yourself with so much bullshit spewing from your foodhole? > I'm building applications using our technology and competitors and technology not obviously related just to see if could be relevant. No you're not, OP said so.
ghettoCoder 11y ago
I'm sorry but everything you just described is not a PM's job. The PM does NOT represent the customer. The PM is responsible for delivering an agreed upon set of functionality within time and budget. You're describing a product owner. edit: typo
- icki 11y ago
  Are you not confusing the typical PM acronym (project manager) with the Microsoft PM acronym (program manager)? Most of the PM's I know at Microsoft have product ownership roles.
- crandycodes 11y ago
  Program Managers are not Project Managers nor Product Managers. We perform the roles of one or both depending on the Org (which is kind of annoying that that isn't more predictable). Our primary role is customer advocate. You can see Steven Sinofsky's blog post from 2005 [1] about it. Ignoring what Sinofsky has or hasn't done, it's a very good post and fits what I try to do with my very open ended position. There is an article "Zen of PM" [2] that is a more recent description that I like a lot as well. You'll notice they disagree with each other a bit. :) It's never boring as a PM at Microsoft. If you're ever in a lull on a project, you can always pontificate about your reason for existing in the company. [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/b/techtalk/archive/2005/12/16/504872.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/techtalk/archive/2005/12/16/504872.a... [2] http://microsoftjobsblog.com/zen-of-pm/ http://microsoftjobsblog.com/zen-of-pm/

melted 11y ago

>> if you can care more about your customer than >> having your job or being promoted The honest answer to that is "no" 100% of the time, for any rational person. Anyone who says otherwise is either stupid, or trying to BS you, or both. Simply put, incentives should align to desired outcomes, otherwise you get the outcomes your incentives _do_ align with.

crandycodes 11y ago
I'm still naive enough to believe there is more than money out of a job. I really do like making new products and having people like them. There is always another opportunity out there. Microsoft has rewarded me pretty dang well so far, but if I ever get stuck with a bad boss or some stagnation career-wise, I'll find a place where I can do what I love and be rewarded for it. Rewards do tend to go towards good PMs and such, but it's easy to find yourself in a bad spot. Can't let the game play you.
- melted 11y ago
  I'm not saying there isn't more in a job. I'm just saying that setting things up so that "more" is mutually exclusive with "money" is a piss poor way of doing it. These things can and should coincide. Once they do not, it's time to move on.
  - marvy 11y ago
    It seems you two are actually in agreement

antocv 11y ago

How can you live with yourself with so much bullshit spewing from your foodhole? > I'm building applications using our technology and competitors and technology not obviously related just to see if could be relevant. No you're not, OP said so.

ghettoCoder 11y ago

I'm sorry but everything you just described is not a PM's job. The PM does NOT represent the customer. The PM is responsible for delivering an agreed upon set of functionality within time and budget. You're describing a product owner. edit: typo

icki 11y ago
Are you not confusing the typical PM acronym (project manager) with the Microsoft PM acronym (program manager)? Most of the PM's I know at Microsoft have product ownership roles.
crandycodes 11y ago
Program Managers are not Project Managers nor Product Managers. We perform the roles of one or both depending on the Org (which is kind of annoying that that isn't more predictable). Our primary role is customer advocate. You can see Steven Sinofsky's blog post from 2005 [1] about it. Ignoring what Sinofsky has or hasn't done, it's a very good post and fits what I try to do with my very open ended position. There is an article "Zen of PM" [2] that is a more recent description that I like a lot as well. You'll notice they disagree with each other a bit. :) It's never boring as a PM at Microsoft. If you're ever in a lull on a project, you can always pontificate about your reason for existing in the company. [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/b/techtalk/archive/2005/12/16/504872.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/techtalk/archive/2005/12/16/504872.a... [2] http://microsoftjobsblog.com/zen-of-pm/ http://microsoftjobsblog.com/zen-of-pm/