4 ms·

"Martinis, too, demand minimal dilution, so bartenders will stir gin and vermouth with dense cubes for several minutes to get them to the right temperature." T

"Martinis, too, demand minimal dilution, so bartenders will stir gin and vermouth with dense cubes for several minutes to get them to the right temperature." That's nonsense. Chilling and dilution are proportional. It'd be much smarter to just stir less with normal cubes. "Lazar noted that some bartenders will stir drinks for several minutes to achieve maximum chilling, which also gives the spirits a viscous, “ropey” quality." Also silly. At that point you've reached equilibrium, so you might as well have saved yourself 5 minutes and shaken it. Also I don't know how over-diluting can make something viscous or ropey, I'd think it'd make it thin.

fizx 11y ago
> saved yourself 5 minutes and shaken it Don't shake martinis or manhattans. It gets tiny ice chips in the drink. Bond was an idiot.
- alphakappa 11y ago
  That's what sieves are for. A good bartender knows to remove the ice chips before serving the cocktail.
- MaxGabriel 11y ago
  To add to this, shaking introduces air into the drink and creates bubbles, changing the texture and look of the drink. A stirred martini will be clearer than a shaken one.
- Otik 11y ago
  I always thought "stirred not shaken" would have fit Bond rather better, not just because it leads to a better drink, but because it could be taken as a statement about his attitude.
  - crdb 11y ago
    Yes. That. Bond was a bit of a "rebel" and he would signal it by being contrarian. Ordering vodka instead of gin would also signal "I'm an alcoholic, I'm not ashamed of it, I don't care for taste" (as vodka is a tasteless spirit). The funny thing is that, due to Bond's popularity, asking for your martini stirred is now the contrarian thing to do. Unless enough people read up on it, discover that one should ask for it stirred, and then decide to signal their rejection of arriviste iconoclasm by asking for it shaken. I haven't been in a cocktail bar for a while so I don't know where in the cycle we are at the moment. The French Bond, S.A.S. (by De Villiers) did not bother with these mind games and at least in the early books just orders vodka on ice, the alcoholic's drink of choice (tasteless, and with less congeners, leading to an easier hangover). De Villiers' willingness to do product placement sees him go through Cointreau, Gaston de Lagrange cognac, the ubiquitous Moet 1964, and one of the more popular brands of American bourbon (ends around the 20th book if I recall well).
- colordrops 11y ago
  Wait, so am I a barbarian for enjoying those tiny ice chips?
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    Well, obviously, if you have to ask someone else what style of alcohol is socially correct, you're necessarily a barbarian. If you weren't a barbarian, you'd know. ;p
    - chris_wot 11y ago
      The corollary is that you know you are not a barbarian when you can explain why someone else is a barbarian if they have to ask someone else what style of alcohol is socially correct ;) FWIW, because I've just explained that you aren't a barbarian because you explained to someone they are a barbarian because they had to ask if their choice of alcohol is socially correct I exist in an indeterminate state of barbarism until I'm observed.
- mattmaroon 11y ago
  You can avoid the tiny ice chips with a tea strainer, which you see at any respectable cocktail bar. You don't shake them because it over-dilutes and over-chills, as would stirring for 5 minutes. (It also oxygenates them and makes them a cloudy foamy mess, but that goes away on its own in under 5 minutes.)
mrob 11y ago
It's not over-diluting that could make it "ropey", it's over-chilling. Try putting a bottle of vodka in a freezer. As you chill spirits their viscosity increases. Shaking high ABV drinks with ice brings their temperature well below 0C. See: http://www.cookingissues.com/index.html%3Fp=4585.html http://www.cookingissues.com/index.html%3Fp=4585.html Stirring is much less effective than shaking, but very long stirring could approach shaking temperatures. I think it's plausible that the viscosity difference could be perceptible.
- mattmaroon 11y ago
  Well when you shake it the viscosity difference isn't noticeable. A shaken martini sucks but I wouldn't call it "ropey". They aren't putting it in the freezer, they're stirring. As that link you posted shows, stirring for 7 minutes and shaking probably get about the same dilution/chilling.
cshimmin 11y ago
I don't drink these sorts of cocktails, so maybe I'm missing something important. But if everyone wants cold drinks with no dilution, why the heck don't they just refrigerate the ingredients beforehand?
- mattmaroon 11y ago
  You don't want it with no dilution. It wouldn't taste good. You just don't want it overly diluted. Refrigerating ingredients isn't practical for bar service because you'd be constantly pulling bottles in and out, so they'd be at fluctuating temperatures. It'd also be very expensive to have that much extra fridge space behind a bar, which is very cramped to begin with.
monochromatic 11y ago
No. If your ice is cold enough (way below freezing), it's possible to chill the drink with no dilution at all.
- mattmaroon 11y ago
  No. The phase change takes as much energy as warming the ice 80C. No matter how cold the ice was some would melt, but even getting to where the dilution is minimal would require equipment you can't have at a bar. This article wasn't about a science lab.
  - monochromatic 11y ago
    I'm not saying that you won't get a single molecule of water going into solution, but if you add a small amount of liquid to ice that's well below freezing, you really can get effectively zero melting. It will equilibrate to a temperature that's still below the freezing point of water.

fizx 11y ago

> saved yourself 5 minutes and shaken it Don't shake martinis or manhattans. It gets tiny ice chips in the drink. Bond was an idiot.

alphakappa 11y ago
That's what sieves are for. A good bartender knows to remove the ice chips before serving the cocktail.
MaxGabriel 11y ago
To add to this, shaking introduces air into the drink and creates bubbles, changing the texture and look of the drink. A stirred martini will be clearer than a shaken one.
Otik 11y ago
I always thought "stirred not shaken" would have fit Bond rather better, not just because it leads to a better drink, but because it could be taken as a statement about his attitude.
- crdb 11y ago
  Yes. That. Bond was a bit of a "rebel" and he would signal it by being contrarian. Ordering vodka instead of gin would also signal "I'm an alcoholic, I'm not ashamed of it, I don't care for taste" (as vodka is a tasteless spirit). The funny thing is that, due to Bond's popularity, asking for your martini stirred is now the contrarian thing to do. Unless enough people read up on it, discover that one should ask for it stirred, and then decide to signal their rejection of arriviste iconoclasm by asking for it shaken. I haven't been in a cocktail bar for a while so I don't know where in the cycle we are at the moment. The French Bond, S.A.S. (by De Villiers) did not bother with these mind games and at least in the early books just orders vodka on ice, the alcoholic's drink of choice (tasteless, and with less congeners, leading to an easier hangover). De Villiers' willingness to do product placement sees him go through Cointreau, Gaston de Lagrange cognac, the ubiquitous Moet 1964, and one of the more popular brands of American bourbon (ends around the 20th book if I recall well).
colordrops 11y ago
Wait, so am I a barbarian for enjoying those tiny ice chips?
- thaumasiotes 11y ago
  Well, obviously, if you have to ask someone else what style of alcohol is socially correct, you're necessarily a barbarian. If you weren't a barbarian, you'd know. ;p
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    The corollary is that you know you are not a barbarian when you can explain why someone else is a barbarian if they have to ask someone else what style of alcohol is socially correct ;) FWIW, because I've just explained that you aren't a barbarian because you explained to someone they are a barbarian because they had to ask if their choice of alcohol is socially correct I exist in an indeterminate state of barbarism until I'm observed.
mattmaroon 11y ago
You can avoid the tiny ice chips with a tea strainer, which you see at any respectable cocktail bar. You don't shake them because it over-dilutes and over-chills, as would stirring for 5 minutes. (It also oxygenates them and makes them a cloudy foamy mess, but that goes away on its own in under 5 minutes.)

mrob 11y ago

It's not over-diluting that could make it "ropey", it's over-chilling. Try putting a bottle of vodka in a freezer. As you chill spirits their viscosity increases. Shaking high ABV drinks with ice brings their temperature well below 0C. See: http://www.cookingissues.com/index.html%3Fp=4585.html http://www.cookingissues.com/index.html%3Fp=4585.html Stirring is much less effective than shaking, but very long stirring could approach shaking temperatures. I think it's plausible that the viscosity difference could be perceptible.

mattmaroon 11y ago
Well when you shake it the viscosity difference isn't noticeable. A shaken martini sucks but I wouldn't call it "ropey". They aren't putting it in the freezer, they're stirring. As that link you posted shows, stirring for 7 minutes and shaking probably get about the same dilution/chilling.

cshimmin 11y ago

I don't drink these sorts of cocktails, so maybe I'm missing something important. But if everyone wants cold drinks with no dilution, why the heck don't they just refrigerate the ingredients beforehand?

mattmaroon 11y ago
You don't want it with no dilution. It wouldn't taste good. You just don't want it overly diluted. Refrigerating ingredients isn't practical for bar service because you'd be constantly pulling bottles in and out, so they'd be at fluctuating temperatures. It'd also be very expensive to have that much extra fridge space behind a bar, which is very cramped to begin with.

monochromatic 11y ago

No. If your ice is cold enough (way below freezing), it's possible to chill the drink with no dilution at all.

mattmaroon 11y ago
No. The phase change takes as much energy as warming the ice 80C. No matter how cold the ice was some would melt, but even getting to where the dilution is minimal would require equipment you can't have at a bar. This article wasn't about a science lab.
- monochromatic 11y ago
  I'm not saying that you won't get a single molecule of water going into solution, but if you add a small amount of liquid to ice that's well below freezing, you really can get effectively zero melting. It will equilibrate to a temperature that's still below the freezing point of water.