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In particular, PHP should be obsolete now that we have many more ways of integrating pieces of code rather than linking together subroutines in one BIG BALL OF

In particular, PHP should be obsolete now that we have many more ways of integrating pieces of code rather than linking together subroutines in one BIG BALL OF MUD. It is no longer necessary for an application to be written in one language or run on one platform. Existing PHP applications could be evolved using another language platform by taking advantage of the HTTP request to integrate other language code. Or using a message queuing library like AMQP or ZeroMQ. Python and Ruby will be with us for a long time, but PERL and PHP will die an ugly death. Facebook has already abandoned PHP in favor of a PHP subset that runs on a modern VM platform (HHVM). We can't all do that, but we can adopt tools that run on the JVM or take on a well-designed language like Python or Ruby or Javascript. On the JVM we have things like Grails on Groovy, Clojure and Scala which have strong development teams and visions for the future. PHP, like PERL, just doesn't fit in any more. We have moved beyond hacks and incorporated computer science into our development platforms in order to save time and money and fossil fuels.

giaour 11y ago
It's more than a bit disingenuous to call Facebook's work on Hack and the HHVM an abandonment of PHP. A big part of the HHVM project was writing a formal PHP spec, and features from Hack have been making their way into mainstream PHP (generators in 5.5; static types in 7). It would be much more accurate to say that Facebook has invested heavily in PHP by financing an alternative runtime.
Demiurge 11y ago
JavaScript is well designed? Of course, 'well' is not very precise. But considering how fast it was created, how many translate-to-JS languages there are, at best I'd call it 'best possible design in 10 days' (http://www.quora.com/In-which-10-days-of-May-did-Brendan-Eich-write-JavaScript-Mocha-in-1995 http://www.quora.com/In-which-10-days-of-May-did-Brendan-Eic...)
- gear54rus 11y ago
  > how many translate-to-JS languages there are I'd call it well designed AND most-misunderstood for this very reason. And this 10-day argument really makes me smile every time I see it. You're barely using anything that was designed in 10 days, ES6 is already here and it changed thing a lot.
  - Demiurge 11y ago
    I would call the ability not to be misunderstood a very important design requirement. I'm using ES6, it didn't change almost anything for me. Even the official docs say it is minimalistic improvement, just syntactic sugar. I like the string interpolation, but the class keyword doesn't really do much more than prototype.method =. There isn't really inheritance, super doesn't do what anyone expects, 'this' is not improved. At least 'let' helps with scoping problems.
  - Retra 11y ago
    You don't find it ironic that you said "most-misunderstood" in a discussion about language, and somehow thought this is a problem worth overlooking?
    - gear54rus 11y ago
      Well its really not a problem of the language if people keep trying to shove their type systems (typescript) or functional syntactic sugar (coffee - some of it made into standards at least) while those understanding it continue to be successful with it.
ChrisCinelli 11y ago
"take on a well-designed language like Python or Ruby or Javascript" I like Javascript and Node.js BUT please do not call it a well-designed language. Strict mode makes it a lot better and ECMAcript 6 is great. Even the people that invented it recognized that it had more than a few design flaw. As time passes and better engineers that understand computer languages get involved in the core development, things have been drastically improved. This is true for Javascript, Python, and, yes, also for PHP.
- bhouston 11y ago
  I love JavaScript, but I completely agree. Arguably the best JavaScript book is titled "JavaScript: the good parts." That is a pretty clear message that there are a lot of bad parts around.
aikah 11y ago
> Python and Ruby will be with us for a long time, but PERL and PHP will die an ugly death > On the JVM we have things like Grails on Groovy, Clojure and Scala which have strong development teams and visions for the future. > PHP, like PERL, just doesn't fit in any more. It's because you don't understand PHP's users perspective that you say these things. PHP isn't going away anytime soon. The most popular CMSs are written in PHP, not in Ruby,Python or Clojure. In the small business space, PHP is king, not Scala nor Groovy. Of course it's your opinion, but it's not based on any facts.
- entelechy0 11y ago
  I don't get why so many people seem to be biased against PHP. It isn't an awful language or anything.
  - Retra 11y ago
    What do you think an awful language should do?
vorg 11y ago
> On the JVM we have things like Grails on Groovy, Clojure and Scala Grails is related to Groovy, but not to Clojure or to Scala. I'm sure you just typed it wrong, but I'm correcting you because some readers might get confused. To be more precise, Groovy runs on Grails, not vice versa. And almost all of Grails, even Grails 3.0 just released, is written in Java, not Groovy. Groovy is merely provided for use by website builders using Grails. This is different to frameworks using Clojure and Scala, which not only provide the respective language for website builders, but are generally also written in the language rather than Java.

giaour 11y ago

It's more than a bit disingenuous to call Facebook's work on Hack and the HHVM an abandonment of PHP. A big part of the HHVM project was writing a formal PHP spec, and features from Hack have been making their way into mainstream PHP (generators in 5.5; static types in 7). It would be much more accurate to say that Facebook has invested heavily in PHP by financing an alternative runtime.

Demiurge 11y ago

JavaScript is well designed? Of course, 'well' is not very precise. But considering how fast it was created, how many translate-to-JS languages there are, at best I'd call it 'best possible design in 10 days' (http://www.quora.com/In-which-10-days-of-May-did-Brendan-Eich-write-JavaScript-Mocha-in-1995 http://www.quora.com/In-which-10-days-of-May-did-Brendan-Eic...)

gear54rus 11y ago
> how many translate-to-JS languages there are I'd call it well designed AND most-misunderstood for this very reason. And this 10-day argument really makes me smile every time I see it. You're barely using anything that was designed in 10 days, ES6 is already here and it changed thing a lot.
- Demiurge 11y ago
  I would call the ability not to be misunderstood a very important design requirement. I'm using ES6, it didn't change almost anything for me. Even the official docs say it is minimalistic improvement, just syntactic sugar. I like the string interpolation, but the class keyword doesn't really do much more than prototype.method =. There isn't really inheritance, super doesn't do what anyone expects, 'this' is not improved. At least 'let' helps with scoping problems.
- Retra 11y ago
  You don't find it ironic that you said "most-misunderstood" in a discussion about language, and somehow thought this is a problem worth overlooking?
  - gear54rus 11y ago
    Well its really not a problem of the language if people keep trying to shove their type systems (typescript) or functional syntactic sugar (coffee - some of it made into standards at least) while those understanding it continue to be successful with it.

ChrisCinelli 11y ago

"take on a well-designed language like Python or Ruby or Javascript" I like Javascript and Node.js BUT please do not call it a well-designed language. Strict mode makes it a lot better and ECMAcript 6 is great. Even the people that invented it recognized that it had more than a few design flaw. As time passes and better engineers that understand computer languages get involved in the core development, things have been drastically improved. This is true for Javascript, Python, and, yes, also for PHP.

bhouston 11y ago
I love JavaScript, but I completely agree. Arguably the best JavaScript book is titled "JavaScript: the good parts." That is a pretty clear message that there are a lot of bad parts around.

aikah 11y ago

> Python and Ruby will be with us for a long time, but PERL and PHP will die an ugly death > On the JVM we have things like Grails on Groovy, Clojure and Scala which have strong development teams and visions for the future. > PHP, like PERL, just doesn't fit in any more. It's because you don't understand PHP's users perspective that you say these things. PHP isn't going away anytime soon. The most popular CMSs are written in PHP, not in Ruby,Python or Clojure. In the small business space, PHP is king, not Scala nor Groovy. Of course it's your opinion, but it's not based on any facts.

entelechy0 11y ago
I don't get why so many people seem to be biased against PHP. It isn't an awful language or anything.
- Retra 11y ago
  What do you think an awful language should do?

vorg 11y ago

> On the JVM we have things like Grails on Groovy, Clojure and Scala Grails is related to Groovy, but not to Clojure or to Scala. I'm sure you just typed it wrong, but I'm correcting you because some readers might get confused. To be more precise, Groovy runs on Grails, not vice versa. And almost all of Grails, even Grails 3.0 just released, is written in Java, not Groovy. Groovy is merely provided for use by website builders using Grails. This is different to frameworks using Clojure and Scala, which not only provide the respective language for website builders, but are generally also written in the language rather than Java.