10 ms·

After Senate vote, NSA prepares to shut down phone tracking program

156 points by tux3 11y ago

vonklaus 11y ago
> After NSA vote, NSA prepares to go dark with phone tracking program, with less oversite and less visibility.
jxcl 11y ago
> Administration officials said later that they had to start the lengthy procedure of winding down the counter-terrorism program in anticipation of Congress failing to act. I find this sentence construction grating. They didn't fail to act. They acted to stop the program (well... so far).
- mkoryak 11y ago
  Here is an interesting quote: "About 300 such searches were made in 2014." I cant decide if it was better if this was true (and start to mentally calculate the cost of each search) or if this is a ridiculous lie
  - erichurkman 11y ago
    300 searches of `select *`?
    - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
      "About" like, nightly, "rounded" down.
  - perfTerm 11y ago
    Hmm, and 300 reported is what percentage of the total?
- tsotha 11y ago
  That's not the case as I understand it. Portions of USA Patriot have sunset provisions - all Congress has to do to make them go away is nothing. They're not acting to stop anything.
monochromatic 11y ago
Almost feels like a headline from The Onion. "Oh yeah, we're totally gonna shut it down just because it's illegal."
- task_queue 11y ago
  I thought it was satire and chuckled.
kabdib 11y ago
With essentially zero visibility, it's meaningless. Historically they could totally lie, be discovered, make headlines and still no one would go to jail. The folks behind this have more of a chance of getting tickets for jaywalking than they do of doing time for violating the laws prohibiting them from spying.
- kabdib 11y ago
  We record all your phone calls and email We know where your browsing has been We store it all in huge datacenters My God, how the money rolls in Sorry, that just happened. :-) But seriously, do we expect a huge cash cow to contractors and consultants to just go away like that? It seems bloody unlikely.
- rtpg 11y ago
  except when these things pass, Google & Co. can decide not to play ball and have legal backing to do so. Though in this case, Google still needs to collect info..
  - tajen 11y ago
    The way a secret service orders a company to participate to their surveillance systems is not only using the law. It is often by performing ad hominem blackmailing, so even if the CEO orders everyone to reject participation, the low-level operator will let the NSA person in, and his boss will cover the leak in fear of his child being taken in for drug use at his high school.
    - pdkl95 11y ago
      In addition, some people will do it voluntarily (and not talk about it), motivated sometimes by profit (bribes) or some sense patriotism[1] and duty. There are many authoritarian collaborators in this country - including way to many from the tech industry. [1] misplaced, as they should be supporting the Constitution, not a particular administration
- higherpurpose 11y ago
analog31 11y ago
What's to "prepare" for shutting it down? Reminds me of the story where John Coltrane told Miles Davis that he didn't know how to end his solos. Miles said: "Try taking the fucking horn out of your mouth."
- meowface 11y ago
  Depending on which bill passes, if any, they may move to a system where they contact providers and request records on a case-by-case basis... like every law enforcement agency already does. That does require some changes in procedures.
- perfTerm 11y ago
  Nice. I'm sure there must be administrative stuff no? Shuffling employees around. Shutting down servers. Setting up the pipeline to deal with the telcos. Etc. Etc. But yea, it should be as simple as a switch, the rest is just after effects, you're right.
- logn 11y ago
  They're not going to shut down a single thing. They need to roll out a half-assed update to 'minimize' data on US persons, and also open investigations of potential criminal activity into as many millions of Americans as possible (because they can keep surveillance on in that case). They'll probably try to do this as sloppily as possible because as long as they can claim surveillance of US people is unintentional, it's legal under FISA 702. 'alter table Panopticon drop column Country;'
- tsotha 11y ago
  What they have to do is prepare to do their jobs in the absence of the kind of programs that will no longer be authorized. Most likely what that means is they're going to do things like hire a bunch of lawyers to handle an increase in the number of requests they make to FISA courts. What they're really doing here is what bureaucrats always do when you tell them they can't do something - this is the first step in a PR campaign to scare people into forcing Congress to reauthorize expansive data collection.
suprgeek 11y ago
I think "shut down" means "move to collect via other means which are currently classified". Once the tiger has tasted human blood it is always a man-eater. They have ONE and ONLY one mandate "Collect all the things". There is virtually no chance that the NSA will stop collecting this information until there is actual meaningful oversight. If DNI James Clapper can directly lie to Congress publicly and face no consequences & the CIA is able to spy on the Senators & then whitewash it - there is zero credibility left in any intelligence agency following the rules. At this point we might as well say it - we have let loose the dogs and now are at their mercy.
- drcode 11y ago
  What's sad is you comment sounds EXACTLY like something a conspiracy nut would say, except most of us probably agree with your sentiment 100%.
  - astrocat 11y ago
    Careful now, there is a BIG difference between conspiracy types and cynics.
    - skidoo 11y ago
      "All new truths begin as heresy."
  - x0x0 11y ago
    That makes me sad, but in a world where the one and only person punished for our torture program was the whistleblower, it's hard to believe the NSA even has to pretend to follow the law. And if / when they get caught, all they have to do is yell terrorists, terrorists to get a get out of jail free card.
  - pnathan 11y ago
    But, he's not wrong. Collect all the things is exactly their mandate. This information is then mined to produce actionable intelligence. It's absolutely what we do in business today, but turned toward diplomatic aims. I don't see why this is a conspiracy kind of thing. We have a spy agency, that are hired to do SIGINT spying.
pasbesoin 11y ago
NSA gets busy backronyming SEA...
- spiritplumber 11y ago
  SafetyEar Agency! You know, for the kids.
ianstallings 11y ago
It's funny how they keep insisting the program works and fall back on FUD when asked why we should continue. Facts don't register with these guys.
- drawkbox 11y ago
  "But the rise of ISIS will continue" they say, and they sure did while the program was going on as well. So using a justification that existed and grew while the programs existed just proves they are for other reasons. Other parts of the law are also bogus 'terrorism' reasoning including sneak and peek searches: First, the numbers: Law enforcement made 47 sneak-and-peek searches nationwide from September 2001 to April 2003. The 2010 report reveals 3,970 total requests were processed. Within three years that number jumped to 11,129. That's an increase of over 7,000 requests. Exactly what privacy advocates argued in 2001 is happening: sneak and peak warrants are not just being used in exceptional circumstances—which was their original intent—but as an everyday investigative tool. Second, the uses: Out of the 3,970 total requests from October 1, 2009 to September 30, 2010, 3,034 were for narcotics cases and only 37 for terrorism cases (about .9%). Since then, the numbers get worse. The 2011 report reveals a total of 6,775 requests. 5,093 were used for drugs, while only 31 (or .5%) were used for terrorism cases. The 2012 report follows a similar pattern: Only .6%, or 58 requests, dealt with terrorism cases. The 2013 report confirms the incredibly low numbers. Out of 11,129 reports only 51, or .5%, of requests were used for terrorism. The majority of requests were overwhelmingly for narcotics cases, which tapped out at 9,401 requests. So with this one known tool "sneek-and-peek" searches (which in my opinion violate the 4th), over 99% were used for domestic crime rather than terrorism. Question: What is wrong with normal justice + law system for domestic crime? Answer: it is easier to use war powers with no checks and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/10/peekaboo-i-see-you-government-uses-authority-meant-terrorism-other-uses https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/10/peekaboo-i-see-you-gov...
gonzo41 11y ago
"shut down" is just the new code word for the expanded new program. That way they can say "we're going start the 'shut down' soon"
caf 11y ago
Intelligence officials warned of a precipitous gap in data collected if Congress does not come up with a plan before May 31... We cannot allow a Data Gap!
- jMyles 11y ago
  I must confess, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor.
feybay 11y ago
Great! I really believe them!
drawkbox 11y ago
There is a long way to go to shut these down. Other areas of the Patriot Act such as "sneek-and-peek" are also needing to be rooted out. Over 99% of sneak and peak uses were for domestic crime. I ask what is wrong with our regular law + justice systems where this was needed? The 2013 report confirms the incredibly low numbers. Out of 11,129 reports only 51, or .5%, of requests were used for terrorism.[1] [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/10/peekaboo-i-see-you-government-uses-authority-meant-terrorism-other-uses https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/10/peekaboo-i-see-you-gov...
kpierce 11y ago
They really want to pass the TPP bill. Offer distractions like NSA then "fix it" after passing TPP.
everettForth 11y ago
The Senate is going to meet May 31st to prevent the shut down from happening. This was their most successful vote on Saturday. 57 out of 60 votes needed. http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/114/senate/1/194 http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/114/senate/1/194 Notice all Democrat Senators voted for it. They are going to spend all this week trying to bring over 3 more Senators by offering to add amendments to the bill. The time to act is now, not May 31st minutes before the vote. Does anyone know how to reach out to Senators and let them know that we want them to let section 215 of the Patriot Act to expire, and not to vote for USA Freedom Act simply because a few new amendments might be added in the next week?
frozenport 11y ago
Is this a buy opertunity for Cray stock?
zmanian 11y ago
Great analysis of the state of play on the Patriot Act https://medium.com/@pgeddington/is-the-patriot-act-dead-not-even-close-e50a58bcc38a https://medium.com/@pgeddington/is-the-patriot-act-dead-not-...
thewhitetulip 11y ago
Like anybody is really going to believe this :D
drumhead 11y ago
I wonder how much of the debate in this thread is being shaped and influenced by our friends at the NSA and GCHQ.
- throwawayaway 11y ago
  i don't know why you are getting downvotes, they even have a playbook for that activity: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipula...
louithethrid 11y ago
After Senate vote NSA prepares to pretend to shut down phone tracking program

156 points by tux3 11y ago

> After NSA vote, NSA prepares to go dark with phone tracking program, with less oversite and less visibility.

jxcl 11y ago

> Administration officials said later that they had to start the lengthy procedure of winding down the counter-terrorism program in anticipation of Congress failing to act. I find this sentence construction grating. They didn't fail to act. They acted to stop the program (well... so far).

mkoryak 11y ago
Here is an interesting quote: "About 300 such searches were made in 2014." I cant decide if it was better if this was true (and start to mentally calculate the cost of each search) or if this is a ridiculous lie
- erichurkman 11y ago
  300 searches of `select *`?
  - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
    "About" like, nightly, "rounded" down.
- perfTerm 11y ago
  Hmm, and 300 reported is what percentage of the total?
tsotha 11y ago
That's not the case as I understand it. Portions of USA Patriot have sunset provisions - all Congress has to do to make them go away is nothing. They're not acting to stop anything.

monochromatic 11y ago

Almost feels like a headline from The Onion. "Oh yeah, we're totally gonna shut it down just because it's illegal."

task_queue 11y ago
I thought it was satire and chuckled.

kabdib 11y ago

With essentially zero visibility, it's meaningless. Historically they could totally lie, be discovered, make headlines and still no one would go to jail. The folks behind this have more of a chance of getting tickets for jaywalking than they do of doing time for violating the laws prohibiting them from spying.

kabdib 11y ago
We record all your phone calls and email We know where your browsing has been We store it all in huge datacenters My God, how the money rolls in Sorry, that just happened. :-) But seriously, do we expect a huge cash cow to contractors and consultants to just go away like that? It seems bloody unlikely.
rtpg 11y ago
except when these things pass, Google & Co. can decide not to play ball and have legal backing to do so. Though in this case, Google still needs to collect info..
- tajen 11y ago
  The way a secret service orders a company to participate to their surveillance systems is not only using the law. It is often by performing ad hominem blackmailing, so even if the CEO orders everyone to reject participation, the low-level operator will let the NSA person in, and his boss will cover the leak in fear of his child being taken in for drug use at his high school.
  - pdkl95 11y ago
    In addition, some people will do it voluntarily (and not talk about it), motivated sometimes by profit (bribes) or some sense patriotism[1] and duty. There are many authoritarian collaborators in this country - including way to many from the tech industry. [1] misplaced, as they should be supporting the Constitution, not a particular administration
higherpurpose 11y ago

analog31 11y ago

What's to "prepare" for shutting it down? Reminds me of the story where John Coltrane told Miles Davis that he didn't know how to end his solos. Miles said: "Try taking the fucking horn out of your mouth."

meowface 11y ago
Depending on which bill passes, if any, they may move to a system where they contact providers and request records on a case-by-case basis... like every law enforcement agency already does. That does require some changes in procedures.
perfTerm 11y ago
Nice. I'm sure there must be administrative stuff no? Shuffling employees around. Shutting down servers. Setting up the pipeline to deal with the telcos. Etc. Etc. But yea, it should be as simple as a switch, the rest is just after effects, you're right.
logn 11y ago
They're not going to shut down a single thing. They need to roll out a half-assed update to 'minimize' data on US persons, and also open investigations of potential criminal activity into as many millions of Americans as possible (because they can keep surveillance on in that case). They'll probably try to do this as sloppily as possible because as long as they can claim surveillance of US people is unintentional, it's legal under FISA 702. 'alter table Panopticon drop column Country;'
tsotha 11y ago
What they have to do is prepare to do their jobs in the absence of the kind of programs that will no longer be authorized. Most likely what that means is they're going to do things like hire a bunch of lawyers to handle an increase in the number of requests they make to FISA courts. What they're really doing here is what bureaucrats always do when you tell them they can't do something - this is the first step in a PR campaign to scare people into forcing Congress to reauthorize expansive data collection.

suprgeek 11y ago

I think "shut down" means "move to collect via other means which are currently classified". Once the tiger has tasted human blood it is always a man-eater. They have ONE and ONLY one mandate "Collect all the things". There is virtually no chance that the NSA will stop collecting this information until there is actual meaningful oversight. If DNI James Clapper can directly lie to Congress publicly and face no consequences & the CIA is able to spy on the Senators & then whitewash it - there is zero credibility left in any intelligence agency following the rules. At this point we might as well say it - we have let loose the dogs and now are at their mercy.

drcode 11y ago
What's sad is you comment sounds EXACTLY like something a conspiracy nut would say, except most of us probably agree with your sentiment 100%.
- astrocat 11y ago
  Careful now, there is a BIG difference between conspiracy types and cynics.
  - skidoo 11y ago
    "All new truths begin as heresy."
- x0x0 11y ago
  That makes me sad, but in a world where the one and only person punished for our torture program was the whistleblower, it's hard to believe the NSA even has to pretend to follow the law. And if / when they get caught, all they have to do is yell terrorists, terrorists to get a get out of jail free card.
- pnathan 11y ago
  But, he's not wrong. Collect all the things is exactly their mandate. This information is then mined to produce actionable intelligence. It's absolutely what we do in business today, but turned toward diplomatic aims. I don't see why this is a conspiracy kind of thing. We have a spy agency, that are hired to do SIGINT spying.

pasbesoin 11y ago

NSA gets busy backronyming SEA...

spiritplumber 11y ago
SafetyEar Agency! You know, for the kids.

ianstallings 11y ago

It's funny how they keep insisting the program works and fall back on FUD when asked why we should continue. Facts don't register with these guys.

drawkbox 11y ago
"But the rise of ISIS will continue" they say, and they sure did while the program was going on as well. So using a justification that existed and grew while the programs existed just proves they are for other reasons. Other parts of the law are also bogus 'terrorism' reasoning including sneak and peek searches: First, the numbers: Law enforcement made 47 sneak-and-peek searches nationwide from September 2001 to April 2003. The 2010 report reveals 3,970 total requests were processed. Within three years that number jumped to 11,129. That's an increase of over 7,000 requests. Exactly what privacy advocates argued in 2001 is happening: sneak and peak warrants are not just being used in exceptional circumstances—which was their original intent—but as an everyday investigative tool. Second, the uses: Out of the 3,970 total requests from October 1, 2009 to September 30, 2010, 3,034 were for narcotics cases and only 37 for terrorism cases (about .9%). Since then, the numbers get worse. The 2011 report reveals a total of 6,775 requests. 5,093 were used for drugs, while only 31 (or .5%) were used for terrorism cases. The 2012 report follows a similar pattern: Only .6%, or 58 requests, dealt with terrorism cases. The 2013 report confirms the incredibly low numbers. Out of 11,129 reports only 51, or .5%, of requests were used for terrorism. The majority of requests were overwhelmingly for narcotics cases, which tapped out at 9,401 requests. So with this one known tool "sneek-and-peek" searches (which in my opinion violate the 4th), over 99% were used for domestic crime rather than terrorism. Question: What is wrong with normal justice + law system for domestic crime? Answer: it is easier to use war powers with no checks and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/10/peekaboo-i-see-you-government-uses-authority-meant-terrorism-other-uses https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/10/peekaboo-i-see-you-gov...

gonzo41 11y ago

"shut down" is just the new code word for the expanded new program. That way they can say "we're going start the 'shut down' soon"

caf 11y ago

Intelligence officials warned of a precipitous gap in data collected if Congress does not come up with a plan before May 31... We cannot allow a Data Gap!

jMyles 11y ago
I must confess, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor.

feybay 11y ago

Great! I really believe them!

drawkbox 11y ago

There is a long way to go to shut these down. Other areas of the Patriot Act such as "sneek-and-peek" are also needing to be rooted out. Over 99% of sneak and peak uses were for domestic crime. I ask what is wrong with our regular law + justice systems where this was needed? The 2013 report confirms the incredibly low numbers. Out of 11,129 reports only 51, or .5%, of requests were used for terrorism.[1] [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/10/peekaboo-i-see-you-government-uses-authority-meant-terrorism-other-uses https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/10/peekaboo-i-see-you-gov...

kpierce 11y ago

They really want to pass the TPP bill. Offer distractions like NSA then "fix it" after passing TPP.

everettForth 11y ago

The Senate is going to meet May 31st to prevent the shut down from happening. This was their most successful vote on Saturday. 57 out of 60 votes needed. http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/114/senate/1/194 http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/114/senate/1/194 Notice all Democrat Senators voted for it. They are going to spend all this week trying to bring over 3 more Senators by offering to add amendments to the bill. The time to act is now, not May 31st minutes before the vote. Does anyone know how to reach out to Senators and let them know that we want them to let section 215 of the Patriot Act to expire, and not to vote for USA Freedom Act simply because a few new amendments might be added in the next week?

frozenport 11y ago

Is this a buy opertunity for Cray stock?

zmanian 11y ago

Great analysis of the state of play on the Patriot Act https://medium.com/@pgeddington/is-the-patriot-act-dead-not-even-close-e50a58bcc38a https://medium.com/@pgeddington/is-the-patriot-act-dead-not-...

thewhitetulip 11y ago

Like anybody is really going to believe this :D

drumhead 11y ago

I wonder how much of the debate in this thread is being shaped and influenced by our friends at the NSA and GCHQ.

throwawayaway 11y ago
i don't know why you are getting downvotes, they even have a playbook for that activity: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipula...

louithethrid 11y ago

After Senate vote NSA prepares to pretend to shut down phone tracking program