3 ms·

If at a dinner gathering, I ran into the COBOL programmer who happened to write that code, in my opinion, it would be highly inappropriate to back him into a co

by jasode 11y ago

If at a dinner gathering, I ran into the COBOL programmer who happened to write that code, in my opinion, it would be highly inappropriate to back him into a corner and lecture him about morals. I'm sure he's quite aware that customers don't like it and I don't need to insult his intelligence. It's likely he's morally troubled by it -- he's just not in a position of power to change it. That type of discussion about banking practices & fees is totally above his pay grade. Likewise, I'd be called out as a social justice warrior to berate that software engineer on something he doesn't control. I guess we just have to disagree. I'm not sure what action or solution you're proposing? Should the software engineer quit his job?

jacquesm 11y ago
I was asked a few years ago (when money was in fact still quite tight) to program a system that took the data from an insurance company and subsequently use that to launch a new product without the customers of the insurance company being the wiser that their data had been 'mined' by the newly formed company. It seemed totally un-ethical to me to do this, and it crossed some privacy laws as well regarding the creation of databases with privacy sensitive information on individuals. Someone else stepped up and built it for them, I couldn't care less about that at least it wasn't my work that went to screw over a bunch of unsuspecting consumers. At the same time I've had the porn industry as my customer for over two decades. I guess we all draw our lines in different places such that for every problem there is always going to be someone who will take up the slack. Feel free to berate me for having sold to the porn industry, I have absolutely no excuse. A guideline that would make stuff like this more clear would be appreciated, right now the only one I have is the law: if it's legal: I'll build it, if I feel that it is illegal or gray then I will refuse.
- afarrell 11y ago
  Did your porn industry customers practice human trafficking or other forms of coercion? If not, then how would that sully you any more than someone who visits a porn site?
ryandrake 11y ago
I have quit my job in the past after being asked to write code I considered unethical. And it was nothing even close to the seriousness of deliberately screwing poor people with banking fees. Let me turn it around. If I were interviewing someone for a job writing software, and somehow I found out he worked on that re-ordering software at the bank, while it wouldn't be an instant no-hire, I would very much like to hear an explanation about what good that person thought he was doing.
- throwawayaway 11y ago
  providing value for the banks shareholders who are pension funds. the old cannibalize the young, because they can no longer work. if you look at any asset class, this is how the western advanced civilisations work.
nothrabannosir 11y ago
I guess we just have to disagree. I'm not sure what action or solution you're proposing? Should the software engineer quit his job? Without getting into the rest of the argument, a reply to that last paragraph: The absence of an alternative course of action doesn't make it right, it just explains it. Saying "I can't think of another way to deal with it" isn't an excuse, it's an explanation. He still did The Thing. You can't think of an alternative? Okay, that doesn't change that he did it. It's an important detail because you're putting the onus of dealing with his situation on the rest of the world, while he is the one who got himself in there. "What do you suggest he'd do?" Well, not getting into that situation in the first place would be a good start. Or at least assume responsibility for your actions, when you do.
eropple 11y ago
> That type of discussion about banking practices & fees is totally above his pay grade. Likewise, I'd be called out as a social justice warrior to berate that software engineer on something he doesn't control. Morals are not determined by pay grades. And anyone who uses "social justice warrior" as a pejorative is someone not worth listening to. If you act in fear of being called a name that says you care about social justice, you need to reconsider your world, for it is a rotten one and bad for you. Be mindful of you, and expect others to be mindful of themselves, and hold yourself, and them, accountable for the choices they make. That's the only route--the only route--to a society worth living in. And yes, that does mean giving somebody a ration of shit for jobsworthing us into a worse world. > Should the software engineer quit his job? I have. I'd do it again. We are so very, very privileged in that money can be had more cheaply than self-respect. But so many of us, I think because we as a profession house so many people who are stunted in their ability to measure the world, act as if it were the reverse.
- jasode 11y ago
  >Morals are not determined by pay grades. Please don't put words in my mouth to make you look ethical and make me look amoral. I said "banking fees" not "morals" are above his pay grade. Which bank allows software programmers to set banking fees? None. >"social justice warrior" as a pejorative is someone not worth listening to. If you act in fear of being called a name that says you care about social justice, No. The SJW pejorative[1] would actually say I don't care and I would deserve such an epithet. Lecturing someone about morals if I'm in no position to help them quit their job, is empty platitudes and theatrics. It's the theatrics (not the moral principles) that's called out as SJW and rightfully so. When a parent tells a child not to steal the candy from the store, that's not SJW. The parent has the power to buy the candy or find a substitute later at home. Yes, we, to some extent as (anonymous) HN posters can all espouse the idea of holding people to a higher moral standard. Sure, in this thread, "someone losing their job" is just some abstract concept so I can definitely join the chorus and tell them to quit the job consequences be damned. Nobody here would know the difference. However, I was talking about a real life situation where the COBOL programmer was directly in front of me. In that scenario, I will not lecture him. I hope others are not so crass to do it either (especially if the moral crusader is wearing tennis shoes made by exploited children but that's another discussion.) The programmer already feels bad about it. Lecturing him just depicts me as smug & superior and him as inferior. >Be mindful of you, and expect others to be mindful of themselves, and hold yourself, and them, accountable for the choices they make. I mostly agree with this. Where I disagree with the other posters is that I'm sympathetic to the all those programmers who are basically good people but are stuck in Dilbert cubicles writing code they really don't want to write. The programmers aren't happy about it but they don't have other opportunities. The list is endless... The programmers writing dark patterns on LinkedIn, the correlation tracking on Facebook, the dynamic ticket pricing at airlines, etc. I'm not talking about programmers writing Superfish, or ransom-ware that encrypts the harddrive unless the user pays into a bitcoin account. Those folks are evil and if they didn't have programming skill to write viruses, they'd find another outlet for their evil such as skimming casino accounts or falsifying company expense reports. Not everybody gets to write software to send virtual "Get Well" cards to kids with cancer. There just aren't enough of those morally perfect jobs to go around. I'm talking about the hundreds of thousands just getting through the day at the office. I'm actually shocked that more of us aren't sympathetic to the situation and see that not every programmer supporting business grey areas can just quit. And testimonials from a handful of HN posters proudly proclaiming they quit does not convince people. That shows a total lack of understanding in what type dialogue actually works. People need empathy and support, not righteousness. It's not just programmers. It's the young lady selling overpriced cosmetics at the department store to the customers that don't need it. It's the minimum wage cashier at McDonald's constantly asking, "would you like extra supersize fries with that?" even though the customer in front her weighs 300 pounds and is one burger away from a heart attack. You think someone lecturing a low-level worker about selling fries is appropriate? I believe in moral sermons backed up by support (financial, offering a home to say, etc) if the employee loses his job. Otherwise, it's empty platitudes. [1]http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=social+justice+warrior http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=social+justic...

by jasode 11y ago

jacquesm 11y ago

I was asked a few years ago (when money was in fact still quite tight) to program a system that took the data from an insurance company and subsequently use that to launch a new product without the customers of the insurance company being the wiser that their data had been 'mined' by the newly formed company. It seemed totally un-ethical to me to do this, and it crossed some privacy laws as well regarding the creation of databases with privacy sensitive information on individuals. Someone else stepped up and built it for them, I couldn't care less about that at least it wasn't my work that went to screw over a bunch of unsuspecting consumers. At the same time I've had the porn industry as my customer for over two decades. I guess we all draw our lines in different places such that for every problem there is always going to be someone who will take up the slack. Feel free to berate me for having sold to the porn industry, I have absolutely no excuse. A guideline that would make stuff like this more clear would be appreciated, right now the only one I have is the law: if it's legal: I'll build it, if I feel that it is illegal or gray then I will refuse.

afarrell 11y ago
Did your porn industry customers practice human trafficking or other forms of coercion? If not, then how would that sully you any more than someone who visits a porn site?

ryandrake 11y ago

I have quit my job in the past after being asked to write code I considered unethical. And it was nothing even close to the seriousness of deliberately screwing poor people with banking fees. Let me turn it around. If I were interviewing someone for a job writing software, and somehow I found out he worked on that re-ordering software at the bank, while it wouldn't be an instant no-hire, I would very much like to hear an explanation about what good that person thought he was doing.

throwawayaway 11y ago
providing value for the banks shareholders who are pension funds. the old cannibalize the young, because they can no longer work. if you look at any asset class, this is how the western advanced civilisations work.

nothrabannosir 11y ago

I guess we just have to disagree. I'm not sure what action or solution you're proposing? Should the software engineer quit his job? Without getting into the rest of the argument, a reply to that last paragraph: The absence of an alternative course of action doesn't make it right, it just explains it. Saying "I can't think of another way to deal with it" isn't an excuse, it's an explanation. He still did The Thing. You can't think of an alternative? Okay, that doesn't change that he did it. It's an important detail because you're putting the onus of dealing with his situation on the rest of the world, while he is the one who got himself in there. "What do you suggest he'd do?" Well, not getting into that situation in the first place would be a good start. Or at least assume responsibility for your actions, when you do.

eropple 11y ago

> That type of discussion about banking practices & fees is totally above his pay grade. Likewise, I'd be called out as a social justice warrior to berate that software engineer on something he doesn't control. Morals are not determined by pay grades. And anyone who uses "social justice warrior" as a pejorative is someone not worth listening to. If you act in fear of being called a name that says you care about social justice, you need to reconsider your world, for it is a rotten one and bad for you. Be mindful of you, and expect others to be mindful of themselves, and hold yourself, and them, accountable for the choices they make. That's the only route--the only route--to a society worth living in. And yes, that does mean giving somebody a ration of shit for jobsworthing us into a worse world. > Should the software engineer quit his job? I have. I'd do it again. We are so very, very privileged in that money can be had more cheaply than self-respect. But so many of us, I think because we as a profession house so many people who are stunted in their ability to measure the world, act as if it were the reverse.

jasode 11y ago
>Morals are not determined by pay grades. Please don't put words in my mouth to make you look ethical and make me look amoral. I said "banking fees" not "morals" are above his pay grade. Which bank allows software programmers to set banking fees? None. >"social justice warrior" as a pejorative is someone not worth listening to. If you act in fear of being called a name that says you care about social justice, No. The SJW pejorative[1] would actually say I don't care and I would deserve such an epithet. Lecturing someone about morals if I'm in no position to help them quit their job, is empty platitudes and theatrics. It's the theatrics (not the moral principles) that's called out as SJW and rightfully so. When a parent tells a child not to steal the candy from the store, that's not SJW. The parent has the power to buy the candy or find a substitute later at home. Yes, we, to some extent as (anonymous) HN posters can all espouse the idea of holding people to a higher moral standard. Sure, in this thread, "someone losing their job" is just some abstract concept so I can definitely join the chorus and tell them to quit the job consequences be damned. Nobody here would know the difference. However, I was talking about a real life situation where the COBOL programmer was directly in front of me. In that scenario, I will not lecture him. I hope others are not so crass to do it either (especially if the moral crusader is wearing tennis shoes made by exploited children but that's another discussion.) The programmer already feels bad about it. Lecturing him just depicts me as smug & superior and him as inferior. >Be mindful of you, and expect others to be mindful of themselves, and hold yourself, and them, accountable for the choices they make. I mostly agree with this. Where I disagree with the other posters is that I'm sympathetic to the all those programmers who are basically good people but are stuck in Dilbert cubicles writing code they really don't want to write. The programmers aren't happy about it but they don't have other opportunities. The list is endless... The programmers writing dark patterns on LinkedIn, the correlation tracking on Facebook, the dynamic ticket pricing at airlines, etc. I'm not talking about programmers writing Superfish, or ransom-ware that encrypts the harddrive unless the user pays into a bitcoin account. Those folks are evil and if they didn't have programming skill to write viruses, they'd find another outlet for their evil such as skimming casino accounts or falsifying company expense reports. Not everybody gets to write software to send virtual "Get Well" cards to kids with cancer. There just aren't enough of those morally perfect jobs to go around. I'm talking about the hundreds of thousands just getting through the day at the office. I'm actually shocked that more of us aren't sympathetic to the situation and see that not every programmer supporting business grey areas can just quit. And testimonials from a handful of HN posters proudly proclaiming they quit does not convince people. That shows a total lack of understanding in what type dialogue actually works. People need empathy and support, not righteousness. It's not just programmers. It's the young lady selling overpriced cosmetics at the department store to the customers that don't need it. It's the minimum wage cashier at McDonald's constantly asking, "would you like extra supersize fries with that?" even though the customer in front her weighs 300 pounds and is one burger away from a heart attack. You think someone lecturing a low-level worker about selling fries is appropriate? I believe in moral sermons backed up by support (financial, offering a home to say, etc) if the employee loses his job. Otherwise, it's empty platitudes. [1]http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=social+justice+warrior http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=social+justic...