5 ms·

The diagram on page 14 (page 3 of the machine description) vaguely resembles a Markov model, which I could imagine would be useful for cryptanalysis, but I don'

The diagram on page 14 (page 3 of the machine description) vaguely resembles a Markov model, which I could imagine would be useful for cryptanalysis, but I don't see how such a system would be reasonable for encryption or decryption if you have the keys. Am I misunderstanding the machine?

bbulkow 11y ago
The NSA's response said about the same thing, once you get to the end --- not interesting, not reasonable for encryption and decryption. Interesting, I think, the statement that Nash's machine requires "comparatively" too much hardware. This implies the NSA did have auto-keying systems at the time that had higher security, and lower hardware burden. Remember, in '55 we didn't have single-chip CPUs, we barely had practical transistors, we didn't have planar process circuits (invented in about '60 according to the computer history museum). http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/digital-logic/12/329 http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/digital-logic/12/3... Nash believed in helping the US keep its secrets safe, and exposing the secrets of the enemy. One thing to remember when you look at Snowden's papers exposing not just domestica activities but foreign activities.
- throwawayaway 11y ago
  now that you mention it, the red threat of the 1950s and the civil rights movement are quite similar to the dangers posed by the American populace since 911.
  - throwawayaway 11y ago
    i can only conclude that the downvoters must feel that: the red threat was real and the civil rights movement was a real and present danger.
- readme 11y ago
  Today's generation is strongly detached from the military, I think that is why. If everyone had a close family member or friend serving they would care more about the security of military operations. Like it or not we have enemies still and need to maintain this secrecy to protect our country.
  - proksoup 11y ago
    The closest thing I had to a friend serving, switched from a barely tolerable racist to a fellow who was proud he was protecting our oil interests by shooting hadjis. Difficult to understand how creating enemies abroad is protecting us here.
    - readme 11y ago
      Did he actually serve? It says more about the friends you've kept than the quality of your average service member. The military is huge: there are criminals in it. We have our own justice system for that reason. However I can assure you that is not the case man. I am in the Army and I have never been in a place with as many sane people as this... Extreme beliefs are not even close to being the norm. Most people are just concerned about taking care of their families and are quite moderate politically.
      - proksoup 11y ago
        I didn't keep him. He did serve. I am as skeptical of your anecdotal assurances as you are of mine.
      - serf 11y ago
        >The military is huge: there are criminals in it. We have our own justice system for that reason. Are you talking about the justice systems before or after their tour? The first independent justice system that the service(s) use is a concept from Roman times [0], that predates any form of 'Court of Justice' we have in the states, and is really just there to punish soldiers that rebel, not really anything having to do with a split between civilian and soldier. The second form, post tour 'veteran's court', is really just a way to damage-control dependancy-stricken veterans from causing too much publicity in public courts, and as a way to fast-track such people into lighter sentences than their civilian counterparts.[1] 90 percent completion rate and zero percent recidivism! Remarkable, it must be those values instilled by the service(s).. (the same values that lead them to that court, by the way..) [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/opinion/11castille.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/opinion/11castille.html?_r... [0]: http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1940201,00.html http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1940201,0...
- madaxe_again 11y ago
  Who is this "the enemy" of which you speak? "Filthy Commies"? "Ragheads"? The Hun? Come on, if you're going to go all nationalist on us do it wholeheartedly.
- madaxe_again 11y ago
  Wait, you run a company (Aerospike) making a DB engine. It had better be backdoored and automatically relaying data to intelligence services, or at least banned for export without spyware - if that isn't the case, you're not living by your own mantra, and I'd be curious as to why not?
  - DigitalJack 11y ago
    Where is this mantra you speak of? In the post at least, he was speaking of what John Nash believed.
rumdz 11y ago
A Markov model can be represented as a finite state machine where transitions are probability driven (suppose I'm in a state 'a' and I can transition to state 'b' or 'c' where the probability of transitioning from 'a'->'b' is 30% and 'a'->'c' is 70%). The diagram on page 14 definitely looks like some sort of finite state machine but I don't know which classification it falls under. It doesn't switch states randomly so it's not a Markov chain.
shiro 11y ago
It's deterministic. Basically it's a state machine and the state transition table itself is the key, iiuc. A few years ago I implemented it with software: http://blog.practical-scheme.net/gauche/20120715-nash-cipherer http://blog.practical-scheme.net/gauche/20120715-nash-cipher...

bbulkow 11y ago

The NSA's response said about the same thing, once you get to the end --- not interesting, not reasonable for encryption and decryption. Interesting, I think, the statement that Nash's machine requires "comparatively" too much hardware. This implies the NSA did have auto-keying systems at the time that had higher security, and lower hardware burden. Remember, in '55 we didn't have single-chip CPUs, we barely had practical transistors, we didn't have planar process circuits (invented in about '60 according to the computer history museum). http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/digital-logic/12/329 http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/digital-logic/12/3... Nash believed in helping the US keep its secrets safe, and exposing the secrets of the enemy. One thing to remember when you look at Snowden's papers exposing not just domestica activities but foreign activities.

throwawayaway 11y ago
now that you mention it, the red threat of the 1950s and the civil rights movement are quite similar to the dangers posed by the American populace since 911.
- throwawayaway 11y ago
  i can only conclude that the downvoters must feel that: the red threat was real and the civil rights movement was a real and present danger.
readme 11y ago
Today's generation is strongly detached from the military, I think that is why. If everyone had a close family member or friend serving they would care more about the security of military operations. Like it or not we have enemies still and need to maintain this secrecy to protect our country.
- proksoup 11y ago
  The closest thing I had to a friend serving, switched from a barely tolerable racist to a fellow who was proud he was protecting our oil interests by shooting hadjis. Difficult to understand how creating enemies abroad is protecting us here.
  - readme 11y ago
    Did he actually serve? It says more about the friends you've kept than the quality of your average service member. The military is huge: there are criminals in it. We have our own justice system for that reason. However I can assure you that is not the case man. I am in the Army and I have never been in a place with as many sane people as this... Extreme beliefs are not even close to being the norm. Most people are just concerned about taking care of their families and are quite moderate politically.
    - proksoup 11y ago
      I didn't keep him. He did serve. I am as skeptical of your anecdotal assurances as you are of mine.
    - serf 11y ago
      >The military is huge: there are criminals in it. We have our own justice system for that reason. Are you talking about the justice systems before or after their tour? The first independent justice system that the service(s) use is a concept from Roman times [0], that predates any form of 'Court of Justice' we have in the states, and is really just there to punish soldiers that rebel, not really anything having to do with a split between civilian and soldier. The second form, post tour 'veteran's court', is really just a way to damage-control dependancy-stricken veterans from causing too much publicity in public courts, and as a way to fast-track such people into lighter sentences than their civilian counterparts.[1] 90 percent completion rate and zero percent recidivism! Remarkable, it must be those values instilled by the service(s).. (the same values that lead them to that court, by the way..) [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/opinion/11castille.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/opinion/11castille.html?_r... [0]: http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1940201,00.html http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1940201,0...
madaxe_again 11y ago
Who is this "the enemy" of which you speak? "Filthy Commies"? "Ragheads"? The Hun? Come on, if you're going to go all nationalist on us do it wholeheartedly.
madaxe_again 11y ago
Wait, you run a company (Aerospike) making a DB engine. It had better be backdoored and automatically relaying data to intelligence services, or at least banned for export without spyware - if that isn't the case, you're not living by your own mantra, and I'd be curious as to why not?
- DigitalJack 11y ago
  Where is this mantra you speak of? In the post at least, he was speaking of what John Nash believed.

rumdz 11y ago

A Markov model can be represented as a finite state machine where transitions are probability driven (suppose I'm in a state 'a' and I can transition to state 'b' or 'c' where the probability of transitioning from 'a'->'b' is 30% and 'a'->'c' is 70%). The diagram on page 14 definitely looks like some sort of finite state machine but I don't know which classification it falls under. It doesn't switch states randomly so it's not a Markov chain.

shiro 11y ago

It's deterministic. Basically it's a state machine and the state transition table itself is the key, iiuc. A few years ago I implemented it with software: http://blog.practical-scheme.net/gauche/20120715-nash-cipherer http://blog.practical-scheme.net/gauche/20120715-nash-cipher...