3 ms·

Here's a fun fact: the yellow school busses most North Americans get trucked to school in usually don't have seatbelts. The reason is that they follow a differe

by po 11y ago

Here's a fun fact: the yellow school busses most North Americans get trucked to school in usually don't have seatbelts. The reason is that they follow a different school of thought regarding safety. The basic idea is that instead of giving everyone seatbelts that unruly kids won't adjust properly and will use to whack each other's teeth out, you make really high padded seats so that in the case of an accident the passengers go flying into the seat in front of them, but its a relatively short distance and a soft, sturdy landing. The theory is called 'compartmentalization' if you're looking for a google search term. Here's one: https://canadasafetycouncil.org/child-safety/there-need-seat-belts-school-buses https://canadasafetycouncil.org/child-safety/there-need-seat...

goodcanadian 11y ago
The trouble with the theory is that the seats on the buses I rode on were neither particularly high nor particularly soft. On the bus I rode regularly, the back of the seat in front did not have exposed metal, but many in my town did. Frankly, the fabric covered ones were not much better as you could feel the metal bar beneath the fabric. Even as a kid, I knew I was likely to get seriously injured in the event of an accident. Thankfully, accidents are rare. Perhaps, newer buses are somewhat better, but I imagine most of the old ones are still in service.
delinka 11y ago
We have a local school bus that took a head-on collision at speed (bus traveling 45mph, oncoming pickup at 60mph) and treated the occupants very well. The bus was full of high schoolers, the pickup was driven by another high schooler. The bus driver took a break near the ankle and none of the students sustained anything more than bumps and bruises. Now, a lot comes into play here - the bus outweighs the pickup by several times, so it has the momentum to absorb the oncoming momentum and keep moving. But it's certainly not like hitting a flying bug. All that energy from the truck headed the opposite direction has to go somewhere, and it slows the bus dramatically in an instant. And these are high schoolers - no matter how many times the driver reminds them to sit down, sit correctly, they just won't. And even after all that, with no one besides the driver in a seatbelt, the students were all OK. (To satisfy curiosity: the driver of the pickup took serious injuries of which none were life-threatening; he spent two days in the hospital. He'd gotten impatient driving behind a tractor/trailer and decided to pass immediately after a curve without checking the lane first. This was a two-lane state "highway" and he was indeed in a zone that allowed passing.) Then there's the Really Bad Accidents where the bus ends up on its side or upside down. Seatbelts are designed the hold under stress-- the button becomes near-impossible to operate and release. Smaller children will require the assistance of an adult. And there's ONE on the bus. With 50 kids. They make a safe belt cutter that a driver can carry, but now the driver has to visit every seat with multiple belts, cutting kids free, supporting them so they don't fall. This is not a scenario I'd care to have enter reality.
- simpleigh 11y ago
  Are you sure the button becomes difficult to use? I might be very wrong here, but I'd at least hope that "release easily even when hanging upside down" might be a design requirement of the average safety belt buckle. Perhaps this is why aircraft belts have very different buckles than car belts? Can anyone provide more detail?
  - tombrossman 11y ago
    I'm not sure the claim is true. I only have one personal experience to base this on (fortunately) but I was in an accident as a passenger in a Jeep Wrangler which ended up upside-down on its roll-cage. Both the driver and I were hanging from our belts and had no problem undoing the buckles. We had to do it one-handed with our other hand trying to support ourselves so as not to drop on our heads after releasing the buckle. Click, release, just like normal.
    - vt240 11y ago
      I was in a severe single car accident in a 80s era truck, where I ended up rolling many times down into a ditch, and finally resting upside down. Seat belt did not release, the button was just solid, and I had to hold my body up to un-catch the strap ratchet so that it would relax, and I could wiggle out. In the whole event, the hardest part was kicking out the driver side window to get out of the cab. The only part that saved my life was that I had stacked a bunch of HP servers right behind the driver seat, the rest of the cabin was completely crushed in ;-) (Edit: I will never own a 4x4 or any high center of gravity vehicle which doesn't have a roll cage ever again. The day after the accident, I was sitting at the junk yard looking at the mashed ball of metal which used to be my truck, I couldn't believe I walked away without a scratch.)
      - encoderer 11y ago
        I'm only in my 30s so I don't have a strong recollection of it, but it seems that buckle design change pretty significantly in the 90s.
protomyth 11y ago
Head Start buses now need seat belts or child seats[1]. Of course that is a lower age and they have monitors riding on the bus. 1) http://eclkc.ohs.acf.hhs.gov/hslc/standards/hspps/1310/1310.11%20Child%20Restraint%20Systems..htm http://eclkc.ohs.acf.hhs.gov/hslc/standards/hspps/1310/1310....
rorykirchner 11y ago
A counterexample to the notion that seat backs are good enough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0JlqtntMt0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0JlqtntMt0
- userbinator 11y ago
  Those are not the same seat backs that school buses use. School bus ones are far more "cushy" and flat. Also, that was an... odd collision; getting rear-ended usually does not eject the driver out the front nor flip a bus on its side.
DanBC 11y ago
Wouldn't they have done better to have rear facing seats?
MichaelGG 11y ago
My bus driver would stop and lecture us about this. His reasoning was that in case of an accident, evacuation is difficult if all the kids are buckled in. So if there was a fire (not sure how likely that is), we'd be worse off with seat belts. Now that I'm older, I'm pretty sure he wasn't speaking from a point of deep experience or research, but he was very passionate about the subject, enough to drop us off late several times due to such lectures.
mhb 11y ago
As trivial as you may consider their argument, if the potential benefit of installing and enforcing the use of seat belts on school buses is small enough, it may not take much justification to do nothing. In the US from 2003-2012, there were an annual average of 6 fatalities of non-driver occupants of school buses[1]. [1] http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811890.pdf http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811890.pdf
dghughes 11y ago
That wouldn't work for a rollover or prevent someone being ejected.
dghughes 11y ago
That wouldn't work for a rollover or prevent someone being ejected.

by po 11y ago

goodcanadian 11y ago

The trouble with the theory is that the seats on the buses I rode on were neither particularly high nor particularly soft. On the bus I rode regularly, the back of the seat in front did not have exposed metal, but many in my town did. Frankly, the fabric covered ones were not much better as you could feel the metal bar beneath the fabric. Even as a kid, I knew I was likely to get seriously injured in the event of an accident. Thankfully, accidents are rare. Perhaps, newer buses are somewhat better, but I imagine most of the old ones are still in service.

delinka 11y ago

We have a local school bus that took a head-on collision at speed (bus traveling 45mph, oncoming pickup at 60mph) and treated the occupants very well. The bus was full of high schoolers, the pickup was driven by another high schooler. The bus driver took a break near the ankle and none of the students sustained anything more than bumps and bruises. Now, a lot comes into play here - the bus outweighs the pickup by several times, so it has the momentum to absorb the oncoming momentum and keep moving. But it's certainly not like hitting a flying bug. All that energy from the truck headed the opposite direction has to go somewhere, and it slows the bus dramatically in an instant. And these are high schoolers - no matter how many times the driver reminds them to sit down, sit correctly, they just won't. And even after all that, with no one besides the driver in a seatbelt, the students were all OK. (To satisfy curiosity: the driver of the pickup took serious injuries of which none were life-threatening; he spent two days in the hospital. He'd gotten impatient driving behind a tractor/trailer and decided to pass immediately after a curve without checking the lane first. This was a two-lane state "highway" and he was indeed in a zone that allowed passing.) Then there's the Really Bad Accidents where the bus ends up on its side or upside down. Seatbelts are designed the hold under stress-- the button becomes near-impossible to operate and release. Smaller children will require the assistance of an adult. And there's ONE on the bus. With 50 kids. They make a safe belt cutter that a driver can carry, but now the driver has to visit every seat with multiple belts, cutting kids free, supporting them so they don't fall. This is not a scenario I'd care to have enter reality.

simpleigh 11y ago
Are you sure the button becomes difficult to use? I might be very wrong here, but I'd at least hope that "release easily even when hanging upside down" might be a design requirement of the average safety belt buckle. Perhaps this is why aircraft belts have very different buckles than car belts? Can anyone provide more detail?
- tombrossman 11y ago
  I'm not sure the claim is true. I only have one personal experience to base this on (fortunately) but I was in an accident as a passenger in a Jeep Wrangler which ended up upside-down on its roll-cage. Both the driver and I were hanging from our belts and had no problem undoing the buckles. We had to do it one-handed with our other hand trying to support ourselves so as not to drop on our heads after releasing the buckle. Click, release, just like normal.
  - vt240 11y ago
    I was in a severe single car accident in a 80s era truck, where I ended up rolling many times down into a ditch, and finally resting upside down. Seat belt did not release, the button was just solid, and I had to hold my body up to un-catch the strap ratchet so that it would relax, and I could wiggle out. In the whole event, the hardest part was kicking out the driver side window to get out of the cab. The only part that saved my life was that I had stacked a bunch of HP servers right behind the driver seat, the rest of the cabin was completely crushed in ;-) (Edit: I will never own a 4x4 or any high center of gravity vehicle which doesn't have a roll cage ever again. The day after the accident, I was sitting at the junk yard looking at the mashed ball of metal which used to be my truck, I couldn't believe I walked away without a scratch.)
    - encoderer 11y ago
      I'm only in my 30s so I don't have a strong recollection of it, but it seems that buckle design change pretty significantly in the 90s.

protomyth 11y ago

Head Start buses now need seat belts or child seats[1]. Of course that is a lower age and they have monitors riding on the bus. 1) http://eclkc.ohs.acf.hhs.gov/hslc/standards/hspps/1310/1310.11%20Child%20Restraint%20Systems..htm http://eclkc.ohs.acf.hhs.gov/hslc/standards/hspps/1310/1310....

rorykirchner 11y ago

A counterexample to the notion that seat backs are good enough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0JlqtntMt0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0JlqtntMt0

userbinator 11y ago
Those are not the same seat backs that school buses use. School bus ones are far more "cushy" and flat. Also, that was an... odd collision; getting rear-ended usually does not eject the driver out the front nor flip a bus on its side.

DanBC 11y ago

Wouldn't they have done better to have rear facing seats?

MichaelGG 11y ago

My bus driver would stop and lecture us about this. His reasoning was that in case of an accident, evacuation is difficult if all the kids are buckled in. So if there was a fire (not sure how likely that is), we'd be worse off with seat belts. Now that I'm older, I'm pretty sure he wasn't speaking from a point of deep experience or research, but he was very passionate about the subject, enough to drop us off late several times due to such lectures.

mhb 11y ago

As trivial as you may consider their argument, if the potential benefit of installing and enforcing the use of seat belts on school buses is small enough, it may not take much justification to do nothing. In the US from 2003-2012, there were an annual average of 6 fatalities of non-driver occupants of school buses[1]. [1] http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811890.pdf http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811890.pdf

dghughes 11y ago

That wouldn't work for a rollover or prevent someone being ejected.

dghughes 11y ago

That wouldn't work for a rollover or prevent someone being ejected.