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I'm curious for you to expand on what you mean by real equity? I was hired as the first backend developer at an enterprise startup last August. they told me the

I'm curious for you to expand on what you mean by real equity? I was hired as the first backend developer at an enterprise startup last August. they told me they were securing next round of funding (all family money so far) by end sept/oct and at that point id get market salary (Ive been at ~40% less since hire). in november when it was clear we wouldn't have the funding or revenue to raise salaries, I negotiated another point in equity and higher six figure salary when we do get funding/or revenue. we agreed (me and CEO) that we would reevaluate things in April. now it's almost June and I still held off on having our next talk bc even though we launched a month ago, were still another 1-2 months away from realistically getting revenue. I am at 2% equity which he says is more than any other employer but I'm not sure what my next move is. I'm senior level full stack and do much more than I was hired for from client to backend to devops and helping lead. if I stay longer, how much equity should I go for? again I was told my salary would go to market by sept/oct last year prior to me starting... thanks!

gaius 11y ago
Yeah... all those promises were what are technically known in the industry as "lies". You will never see a market level salary or even a raise, and once that 2% equity has been through dilution it will be more like 0.2% at most. Sorry, but there's no way this situation will play out well for you. Another thing you probably don't want to hear is that you are not "senior level" if you lack the experience to have figured this out for yourself. Not even close. You can learn from this and never be played like a sucker again, but many people it takes 2 or 3 goes around to realize. But it's fine for the CEO, there'll be another 22-year-old around to take this deal in a year.
- hanlec 11y ago
  > Another thing you probably don't want to hear is that you are not "senior level" if you lack the experience to have figured this out for yourself. There are many examples where I don't think there's a strong connection between the level of professional experience with the familiarity with the startup environment/lingo/negotiation.
  - gaius 11y ago
    There is nothing really startup-specific in the scenario. There are exploitative bosses in all industries and all sizes of company. Someone who's played knifey-spooney before would know this.
    - jsalit 11y ago
      I know this post/comment is aging but I feel I have to add my disagreement. Depending on skill and perhaps more than a little luck, navigating your way up to a senior position in the "old school" corporate world can actually be relatively conflict-free. Certainly, exploitative bosses are as widespread as you suggest, but that doesn't mean that every boss is exploitative.
- tallerholler 11y ago
  I definitely agree about seeing the raise to market level... When I was hired they were supposedly going after 2-5M funding (so far its been ~1M in family money put into it), they said once either the additional funding or 50k mrr was hit that my salary (and the others) would go up. A few months ago the CEO's position shifted to wanting to "grow organically". Now it's pretty clear it could be 6months - 1 year before either funding or the mrr are hit (if the company survives that long) and I don't plan to wait, BUT, the main reason I hadn't made a move yet is because it's buying me time to work on a side project while still having some income stream. The thing is I don't want to get played like that and if the company suddenly sees growth (possible), I don't want to be stuck with low equity for all the work I'm contributing. I also only meant senior level in terms of development work, I'm sure I have more to learn in the startup realm.
throwaway2048 11y ago
If you have already demonstrated you are willing to work below market salary, why should they ever pay you market rates.
carrotleads 11y ago
Let me understand this better and don't take this negatively cause I can't figure out a way to make the point better... You already had 2 broken promises and you are still wondering if you should give the other person the benefit of doubt.. What's that they say about, "fool me once, shame on you.. fool me twice, shame on me"... not sure if they have something for "fool me thrice.. "
- tallerholler 11y ago
  yes very true! although the main reason I haven't made a move is it's buying me time to work on a side project while still having income... as my gf's dad said, "prostitution goes two ways"
jacquesm 11y ago
How does your lost income so far stack up against the capital provided by the larger shareholders? And how does your stake compare to theirs? And are some of those larger shareholders also paid from the company on a monthly basis or do they work for free?
- throwaway2048 11y ago
  The marginal utility of money makes this argument pretty bogus, none of the investors are depending on this investment to "turn out" or they won't have money for rent or groceries. 10K in the hands of an employee is a hell of a lot more valuable to them than another 10k is valuable to a millionaire/billionaire
- Gibbon1 11y ago
  I worked at minor start-up once. They actually had not very much money* and I needed work badly. The contract was explicit that I was being paid a percentage of my hourly rate with a hard promise to pay the rest in monthly installments the second year. The advantage of this is once the 'teaser rate' expires you aren't 'negotiating a raise' to get you back to market rates. * As opposed to no money, aka the types of companies where the real profit is in the difference between what they pay their employees and the market rate.
overgard 11y ago
Thats a really good question that I'm unfortunately not qualified to answer. When I said "real stake", to an extent I mostly just meant being a founder or an executive, where you have a seat at the table and if your shares are going to be diluted, at least you're trading it for something. As an employee, for some of these equity packages you'd almost need an MBA to decipher if they're any good with all the things that can happen, so I usually don't even bother and just go to places that pay fairly or have interesting work. Maybe a simple way to think about it: if your market salary is 100k, and they offer you 60k/yr and 2% of the company, is that 2% of the company worth 40k? (And how far can they dilute it?) To me that generally sounds like a bad deal, but your milage might vary depending on the circumstances.
- tallerholler 11y ago
  yeah also I forgot to mention that there are no benefits yet and I'm having to pay health insurance on my own... the only reason I've not left is its buying me time to work on a side project while having some income stream
- joshu 11y ago
  You mean is .5% (assuming a four year vest) worth 40k/yr.
lectrick 11y ago
Get another offer from another firm ASAP, and then ask them to match it (unless you like the other job better). Don't be a sucker, man

gaius 11y ago

Yeah... all those promises were what are technically known in the industry as "lies". You will never see a market level salary or even a raise, and once that 2% equity has been through dilution it will be more like 0.2% at most. Sorry, but there's no way this situation will play out well for you. Another thing you probably don't want to hear is that you are not "senior level" if you lack the experience to have figured this out for yourself. Not even close. You can learn from this and never be played like a sucker again, but many people it takes 2 or 3 goes around to realize. But it's fine for the CEO, there'll be another 22-year-old around to take this deal in a year.

hanlec 11y ago
> Another thing you probably don't want to hear is that you are not "senior level" if you lack the experience to have figured this out for yourself. There are many examples where I don't think there's a strong connection between the level of professional experience with the familiarity with the startup environment/lingo/negotiation.
- gaius 11y ago
  There is nothing really startup-specific in the scenario. There are exploitative bosses in all industries and all sizes of company. Someone who's played knifey-spooney before would know this.
  - jsalit 11y ago
    I know this post/comment is aging but I feel I have to add my disagreement. Depending on skill and perhaps more than a little luck, navigating your way up to a senior position in the "old school" corporate world can actually be relatively conflict-free. Certainly, exploitative bosses are as widespread as you suggest, but that doesn't mean that every boss is exploitative.
tallerholler 11y ago
I definitely agree about seeing the raise to market level... When I was hired they were supposedly going after 2-5M funding (so far its been ~1M in family money put into it), they said once either the additional funding or 50k mrr was hit that my salary (and the others) would go up. A few months ago the CEO's position shifted to wanting to "grow organically". Now it's pretty clear it could be 6months - 1 year before either funding or the mrr are hit (if the company survives that long) and I don't plan to wait, BUT, the main reason I hadn't made a move yet is because it's buying me time to work on a side project while still having some income stream. The thing is I don't want to get played like that and if the company suddenly sees growth (possible), I don't want to be stuck with low equity for all the work I'm contributing. I also only meant senior level in terms of development work, I'm sure I have more to learn in the startup realm.

throwaway2048 11y ago

If you have already demonstrated you are willing to work below market salary, why should they ever pay you market rates.

carrotleads 11y ago

Let me understand this better and don't take this negatively cause I can't figure out a way to make the point better... You already had 2 broken promises and you are still wondering if you should give the other person the benefit of doubt.. What's that they say about, "fool me once, shame on you.. fool me twice, shame on me"... not sure if they have something for "fool me thrice.. "

tallerholler 11y ago
yes very true! although the main reason I haven't made a move is it's buying me time to work on a side project while still having income... as my gf's dad said, "prostitution goes two ways"

jacquesm 11y ago

How does your lost income so far stack up against the capital provided by the larger shareholders? And how does your stake compare to theirs? And are some of those larger shareholders also paid from the company on a monthly basis or do they work for free?

throwaway2048 11y ago
The marginal utility of money makes this argument pretty bogus, none of the investors are depending on this investment to "turn out" or they won't have money for rent or groceries. 10K in the hands of an employee is a hell of a lot more valuable to them than another 10k is valuable to a millionaire/billionaire
Gibbon1 11y ago
I worked at minor start-up once. They actually had not very much money* and I needed work badly. The contract was explicit that I was being paid a percentage of my hourly rate with a hard promise to pay the rest in monthly installments the second year. The advantage of this is once the 'teaser rate' expires you aren't 'negotiating a raise' to get you back to market rates. * As opposed to no money, aka the types of companies where the real profit is in the difference between what they pay their employees and the market rate.

overgard 11y ago

Thats a really good question that I'm unfortunately not qualified to answer. When I said "real stake", to an extent I mostly just meant being a founder or an executive, where you have a seat at the table and if your shares are going to be diluted, at least you're trading it for something. As an employee, for some of these equity packages you'd almost need an MBA to decipher if they're any good with all the things that can happen, so I usually don't even bother and just go to places that pay fairly or have interesting work. Maybe a simple way to think about it: if your market salary is 100k, and they offer you 60k/yr and 2% of the company, is that 2% of the company worth 40k? (And how far can they dilute it?) To me that generally sounds like a bad deal, but your milage might vary depending on the circumstances.

tallerholler 11y ago
yeah also I forgot to mention that there are no benefits yet and I'm having to pay health insurance on my own... the only reason I've not left is its buying me time to work on a side project while having some income stream
joshu 11y ago
You mean is .5% (assuming a four year vest) worth 40k/yr.

lectrick 11y ago

Get another offer from another firm ASAP, and then ask them to match it (unless you like the other job better). Don't be a sucker, man