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I will eschew Wittgenstein's advice and take the bait- I don't think the techno-religion claim is too far off the mark. Of course, the entirety of our argument
by kansface 11y ago
I will eschew Wittgenstein's advice and take the bait- I don't think the techno-religion claim is too far off the mark. Of course, the entirety of our argument is over the definition of religion.
| Unlike religions, cryonics is not exclusive.
I think we'd both agree that exclusivity isn't the principle quality of religion, though many religions are exclusive.
Religions typically have some core set of beliefs - some of which may be untestable, ceremony, dress, and often attempt to explain the mysteries of the universe. I'd also throw in the quality that religions advocate their followers either do something they wouldn't otherwise do or abstain from something they would otherwise enjoy. Its possible some religion lacks proscriptions for life, but I certainly haven't met it.
Cyronics certainly has a core set of beliefs (faith!?) that lead to action. I very much doubt that even if we were to develop sufficient technology to unfreeze all those heads, future humans would do so. Perhaps we'd unfreeze some heads for science and then a few more for the novelty. We both agree cyronics is unlikely to work and that there is no way to run this experiment within our lifetime - cryonics requires faith (by any other name) in humanity and technology.
|In contrast, cryonicists rarely assign high probability to being revived. Most think of it like an experimental cancer treatment: Unlikely to work, but better than the alternative.
I know Christians that would describe their experience in similar terms.
| The most important difference between cryonics and religions is that religious people are typically convinced of the afterlife.
Christians believe in an afterlife, but not all religions do, or even weigh in on the matter - Judaism immediately comes to mind. Apropos, cryonics proposes its own cycle of rebirth! Well, possible rebirth until the great robot wars, the sun explodes, or the heat death of our local cluster.
As for the other attributes I mentioned - dress, ceremony, and the like, cryonics offers bracelets, (non)ceremonial decapitation with ensuing vitrification, and requires its devotees to die somewhere convenient! OK, I agree, this doesn't exactly fit the bill.
Precisely defining religion and faith is tricky. At the very least, I would say cyronics is uncomfortably close to a religion.
- nshepperd 11y ago> Cyronics certainly has a core set of beliefs (faith!?) that lead to action. You could describe basically every mundane activity as having a core set of beliefs that lead to action, but ok. > I very much doubt that even if we were to develop sufficient technology to unfreeze all those heads, future humans would do so. Perhaps we'd unfreeze some heads for science and then a few more for the novelty. Not reviving cryopreserved people is equivalent to leaving them to die... Unless you're counting on future society to be completely 100% morally bankrupt, I would bet on there being eventually at least one person with both enough of a conscience and enough money to fund the revival of people in suspended animation (as the cost of revival should decrease over time with advancing technology). Not that this really seems relevant to any connection to religion. > Apropos, cryonics proposes its own cycle of rebirth! Well, possible rebirth until the great robot wars, the sun explodes, or the heat death of our local cluster. FWIW, unlike religion, cryonics does not really claim you can come back from death. Legal death, yes, but legal death is merely a convenient criterion that captures "the point at which we give up on treating a person with current technology". If you set a cryonicist on fire and destroy their brain's information, they are permanently dead, just like anyone else. (ETA: Since physics is reversible, destroying information is technically impossible, but capturing and calculating reversal of the trajectories of smoke, soot, air and photons back into a whole brain seems thermodynamically infeasible, even for a civilization with Big Angelic Powers.)
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- kolinko 11y agoiirc physics is non-reversible. Something to do with entrophy and possibly quantum physics.
- FeepingCreature 11y agoQuantum Physics is reversible; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser . (Warning: amateur, may be misunderstanding.) You do have to be able to capture the complete environment of the quantum process, which is why decoherence is usually considered one-way.