5 ms·

Jonathan James and Aaron Swartz-Two Obituaries One Prosecutor

82 points by cekanoni 11y ago

Worth remembering and reading!

themartorana 11y ago
We've talked about prosecutorial misconduct, trumped up charges, classification of computer hobbyists as terrorists, 7 felonies a day, hyper-aggressive (and borderline illegal) pushes to force settlements pre-trial, and so on, and so on, innumerable times here on HN. It's no surprise that unchecked power to ruin individual lives no matter the severity of supposed crimes would lead to things like this. Either we should be surprised this doesn't happen more often, or shouldn't be surprised when it continues to happen. And I certainly have zero faith that we'll see federal prosecutors reigned in any time soon.
- sobkas 11y ago
  >borderline illegal It's only illegal when someone is willing to prosecute you for that.
Maxious 11y ago
"Carmen Ortiz, Boston Marathon [and Aaron Swartz] Case Prosecutor, Known For Aggressive Record" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/21/carmen-ortiz-boston_n_3129232.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/21/carmen-ortiz-boston...
- asmithmd1 11y ago
  She ruined the life of a small town doctor who was acquitted of all charges after living under a cloud of suspicion during a 7 year "investigation" http://needham.wickedlocal.com/article/20150515/NEWS/150517160 http://needham.wickedlocal.com/article/20150515/NEWS/1505171...
- pakled_engineer 11y ago
  Ortiz also tried to steal this guy's property 'to set an example' and failed http://www.wbur.org/2013/01/24/tewksbury-motel-foreclosure http://www.wbur.org/2013/01/24/tewksbury-motel-foreclosure
stephen_g 11y ago
There are some really strange ideas here - > "He was accused of stealing the International Space Station’s source code controlling critical life-sustaining elements worth $ 1.7 million." This makes for an exciting sentence, but doesn't make sense - as far as I can tell he didn't deprive them of their $1.7 million dollar code (I assume he just made a copy), and there is absolutely no opportunity cost here - it's not like he had a space station or was going to give it to someone else with a space station, stopping NASA getting revenue that they may had... I find it very hard to see any way that that could be called 'stealing' or why the $1.7 million figure is relevant at all... That doesn't excuse messing around in other people's systems of course. > "His actions put NASA on hold for three weeks, costing them $41,000 because they had to check and of course fix the system." Surely it was NASA's bad security practices that cost them $41,000 - do they really think if he hadn't found the problem, they wouldn't ever have had to fix their insecure systems?
- rayiner 11y ago
  > Surely it was NASA's bad security practices that cost them $41,000 - do they really think if he hadn't found the problem, they wouldn't ever have had to fix their insecure Why is blaming the victim so uniquely acceptable when we're talking about hackers?
  - delinka 11y ago
    Even if some "hacker" hadn't located the security issues, but some employee from NASA had located the security issues, it still costs NASA money to fix the code. Also read "That doesn't excuse messing around in other people's systems of course." stephen_g isn't blaming the victim. But blaming the intruder as if he created the lack of security is just as disingenuous. Imagine a business that's generally open to the public at specific hours. The owner installs the doors himself without any consideration for locks. When reviewing security camera footage from non-business hours, he discovers someone open the door, walk in, look around, and leave. Sure, this person is indeed trespassing. But blaming the trespasser for the cost of putting locks on the door is asinine.
    - 11y ago
fsloth 11y ago
Could someone explain the dynamics and incentives of this aggressive prosecution to a non-US person? One could draw the conclusion that the prosecutors are after political points for going after "easy prey" in an impressive sounding case but I have no idea if this 'opportunist prosecutor' model represents any practical facet of reality.
- a3n 11y ago
  Resume building. A better annual review. We are merely resources to those in law enforcement, sources of tickets, arrests, asset seisure, prosecution and incarceration.
DanBC 11y ago
> Years after the suicide of two hacker geniuses, Jonathan James and Aaron Swartz, one question is still circling the online community: How come those two hackers both committed suicide after being charged by the FBI, and what is even more interesting, they had to deal with the same federal prosecutor? Two obituaries one prosecutor? In America one person dies by suicide every 13 minutes. I'm kind of surprised that only two people being prosecuted by her have died by suicide. The computer industry is mostly people with some risk factors (male; single), although they do have some protective factors (ability to solve problems; money; health insurance). https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/Suicide-DataSheet-a.pdf http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/Suicide-DataSheet-... http://www.cdc.gov/Features/PreventingSuicide/ http://www.cdc.gov/Features/PreventingSuicide/ I am particularly interested in anything that can help men seek help, especially for suicide or other mental health problems. (Please do send me email if you're aware of good work). I like these Australian sites: They don't censor the word on their website: http://softenthefckup.com.au/ http://softenthefckup.com.au/ http://www.beyondblue.org.au/ http://www.beyondblue.org.au/
- facepalm 11y ago
  "In America one person dies by suicide every 13 minutes." Odd statistic to cite. Could you help us out and tell us what percentage of young people commit suicide?
  - extra88 11y ago
    The first link had some age-based information [1]. The rate for people 15 to 24 is 10.9 per 100,000. The highest rate is people 45 to 64, at 19.1. The next age bracket they use is 25 to 44, a much broader range which includes both Jonathan James (25) and Aaron Swartz (27), it's rate appears to be 15.something. [1] https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures#eztoc667_0_1 https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures...
csandreasen 11y ago
So, Jonathan James was indicted and accepted a plea bargain in 2000 for 6 months house arrest and two years of probation. He then committed suicide 8 years later. How can you rationally come to the conclusion that his death is the prosecutor's fault?
- lovelearning 11y ago
  As I understand it, he was suspected of involvement in the 2007 TJX case and allegedly harassed for it. “I honestly, honestly had nothing to do with TJX. I have no faith in the ‘justice’ system. Perhaps my actions today, and this letter, will send a stronger message to the public. Either way, I have lost control over this situation, and this is my only way to regain control.” James’s suicide note.
  - csandreasen 11y ago
    But he was never charged, so there was no prosecutor involved. EDIT: Now that I'm looking a little further into the case... He was apparently raided by the FBI two weeks prior to the suicide during an investigation in the TJX hack. During the raid, the police found another suicide note that James had written several years prior. His suicide note[2] spends the first page and a half talking about something that's been redacted, then the next page and a half talking about some background on the TJX case, denying that he had any connection and noting the fact that one of the other suspects (Chris) had been arrested and subsequently released. He believed that meant that Chris had tried to pin the blame for the hack on him, and he believed that the FBI would be looking to arrest him for a crime he didn't commit. [1] http://www.wired.com/2009/07/hacker-3/ http://www.wired.com/2009/07/hacker-3/ [2] http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2009/07/jamesnote.pdf http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2009/07/jamesn...
chris_wot 11y ago
And what of Carmen Ortiz?
Arzh 11y ago
Whenever hackers talk about the systems the break into it just reads as a rapist saying "Well if she didn't wear such a short shirt I wouldn't have done it." They know what they are doing is illegal and they do it anyway just for the hell of it. I have no sympathy for that kind of asshole.

82 points by cekanoni 11y ago

Worth remembering and reading!

We've talked about prosecutorial misconduct, trumped up charges, classification of computer hobbyists as terrorists, 7 felonies a day, hyper-aggressive (and borderline illegal) pushes to force settlements pre-trial, and so on, and so on, innumerable times here on HN. It's no surprise that unchecked power to ruin individual lives no matter the severity of supposed crimes would lead to things like this. Either we should be surprised this doesn't happen more often, or shouldn't be surprised when it continues to happen. And I certainly have zero faith that we'll see federal prosecutors reigned in any time soon.

sobkas 11y ago
>borderline illegal It's only illegal when someone is willing to prosecute you for that.

Maxious 11y ago

"Carmen Ortiz, Boston Marathon [and Aaron Swartz] Case Prosecutor, Known For Aggressive Record" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/21/carmen-ortiz-boston_n_3129232.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/21/carmen-ortiz-boston...

asmithmd1 11y ago
She ruined the life of a small town doctor who was acquitted of all charges after living under a cloud of suspicion during a 7 year "investigation" http://needham.wickedlocal.com/article/20150515/NEWS/150517160 http://needham.wickedlocal.com/article/20150515/NEWS/1505171...
pakled_engineer 11y ago
Ortiz also tried to steal this guy's property 'to set an example' and failed http://www.wbur.org/2013/01/24/tewksbury-motel-foreclosure http://www.wbur.org/2013/01/24/tewksbury-motel-foreclosure

stephen_g 11y ago

There are some really strange ideas here - > "He was accused of stealing the International Space Station’s source code controlling critical life-sustaining elements worth $ 1.7 million." This makes for an exciting sentence, but doesn't make sense - as far as I can tell he didn't deprive them of their $1.7 million dollar code (I assume he just made a copy), and there is absolutely no opportunity cost here - it's not like he had a space station or was going to give it to someone else with a space station, stopping NASA getting revenue that they may had... I find it very hard to see any way that that could be called 'stealing' or why the $1.7 million figure is relevant at all... That doesn't excuse messing around in other people's systems of course. > "His actions put NASA on hold for three weeks, costing them $41,000 because they had to check and of course fix the system." Surely it was NASA's bad security practices that cost them $41,000 - do they really think if he hadn't found the problem, they wouldn't ever have had to fix their insecure systems?

rayiner 11y ago
> Surely it was NASA's bad security practices that cost them $41,000 - do they really think if he hadn't found the problem, they wouldn't ever have had to fix their insecure Why is blaming the victim so uniquely acceptable when we're talking about hackers?
- delinka 11y ago
  Even if some "hacker" hadn't located the security issues, but some employee from NASA had located the security issues, it still costs NASA money to fix the code. Also read "That doesn't excuse messing around in other people's systems of course." stephen_g isn't blaming the victim. But blaming the intruder as if he created the lack of security is just as disingenuous. Imagine a business that's generally open to the public at specific hours. The owner installs the doors himself without any consideration for locks. When reviewing security camera footage from non-business hours, he discovers someone open the door, walk in, look around, and leave. Sure, this person is indeed trespassing. But blaming the trespasser for the cost of putting locks on the door is asinine.
  - 11y ago

fsloth 11y ago

Could someone explain the dynamics and incentives of this aggressive prosecution to a non-US person? One could draw the conclusion that the prosecutors are after political points for going after "easy prey" in an impressive sounding case but I have no idea if this 'opportunist prosecutor' model represents any practical facet of reality.

a3n 11y ago
Resume building. A better annual review. We are merely resources to those in law enforcement, sources of tickets, arrests, asset seisure, prosecution and incarceration.

DanBC 11y ago

> Years after the suicide of two hacker geniuses, Jonathan James and Aaron Swartz, one question is still circling the online community: How come those two hackers both committed suicide after being charged by the FBI, and what is even more interesting, they had to deal with the same federal prosecutor? Two obituaries one prosecutor? In America one person dies by suicide every 13 minutes. I'm kind of surprised that only two people being prosecuted by her have died by suicide. The computer industry is mostly people with some risk factors (male; single), although they do have some protective factors (ability to solve problems; money; health insurance). https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/Suicide-DataSheet-a.pdf http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/Suicide-DataSheet-... http://www.cdc.gov/Features/PreventingSuicide/ http://www.cdc.gov/Features/PreventingSuicide/ I am particularly interested in anything that can help men seek help, especially for suicide or other mental health problems. (Please do send me email if you're aware of good work). I like these Australian sites: They don't censor the word on their website: http://softenthefckup.com.au/ http://softenthefckup.com.au/ http://www.beyondblue.org.au/ http://www.beyondblue.org.au/

facepalm 11y ago
"In America one person dies by suicide every 13 minutes." Odd statistic to cite. Could you help us out and tell us what percentage of young people commit suicide?
- extra88 11y ago
  The first link had some age-based information [1]. The rate for people 15 to 24 is 10.9 per 100,000. The highest rate is people 45 to 64, at 19.1. The next age bracket they use is 25 to 44, a much broader range which includes both Jonathan James (25) and Aaron Swartz (27), it's rate appears to be 15.something. [1] https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures#eztoc667_0_1 https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures...

csandreasen 11y ago

So, Jonathan James was indicted and accepted a plea bargain in 2000 for 6 months house arrest and two years of probation. He then committed suicide 8 years later. How can you rationally come to the conclusion that his death is the prosecutor's fault?

lovelearning 11y ago
As I understand it, he was suspected of involvement in the 2007 TJX case and allegedly harassed for it. “I honestly, honestly had nothing to do with TJX. I have no faith in the ‘justice’ system. Perhaps my actions today, and this letter, will send a stronger message to the public. Either way, I have lost control over this situation, and this is my only way to regain control.” James’s suicide note.
- csandreasen 11y ago
  But he was never charged, so there was no prosecutor involved. EDIT: Now that I'm looking a little further into the case... He was apparently raided by the FBI two weeks prior to the suicide during an investigation in the TJX hack. During the raid, the police found another suicide note that James had written several years prior. His suicide note[2] spends the first page and a half talking about something that's been redacted, then the next page and a half talking about some background on the TJX case, denying that he had any connection and noting the fact that one of the other suspects (Chris) had been arrested and subsequently released. He believed that meant that Chris had tried to pin the blame for the hack on him, and he believed that the FBI would be looking to arrest him for a crime he didn't commit. [1] http://www.wired.com/2009/07/hacker-3/ http://www.wired.com/2009/07/hacker-3/ [2] http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2009/07/jamesnote.pdf http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2009/07/jamesn...

chris_wot 11y ago

And what of Carmen Ortiz?

Arzh 11y ago

Whenever hackers talk about the systems the break into it just reads as a rapist saying "Well if she didn't wear such a short shirt I wouldn't have done it." They know what they are doing is illegal and they do it anyway just for the hell of it. I have no sympathy for that kind of asshole.