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The elephant in the room is that the tech industry is FULL of companies who are using contractor status to shift tax burden and avoid paying benefits. Almost no

by pekk 11y ago

The elephant in the room is that the tech industry is FULL of companies who are using contractor status to shift tax burden and avoid paying benefits. Almost nobody ever calls this out and those who do are likely to get blackballed. If Uber is hiring drivers and treating them as employees while classifying them as contractors, that isn't special to Uber, it's just the application of the tech industry's way of doing things to taxi drivers.

lucaspiller 11y ago
Same in the UK as well. There are a load of rules, IR35, designed to prevent this sort of thing but they are pretty easy to bypass, and the only real benefit I've seen is accountants can now charge £300+ for a contract "review" to check you are covered. As an example of how easy it is, a friend of mine is contracting long term for the government. In order to ensure he is covered and classed as a contractor, over his summer holidays he will be sub-contracting out to someone else.
- makomk 11y ago
  One of the problems with classifying Uber drivers and the rest of the so-called "sharing economy" as contracting is that they're not allowed to subcontract out the work like your friend did.
floody-berry 11y ago
Companies like Uber are much worse than that. They're a glorified web app profiting off of hundreds of thousands of people who do all the work and bear all the risk while the only people getting rich are the scum at the top and their reprehensible backers. Uber, Airbnb, etc. should make their slogan "Loopholes 101: Exploitation on a global scale. You do the work, we make the money. Fuck you, we don't care!"
- ahallock 11y ago
  Your comment is filled with vitriol -- did you something happen to you? Why would Uber drivers be getting "rich" anyway? A decent living might be possible, but I don't think driving cars is valued as much in the economy as those creating jobs, nor should it be. And to say Uber bears no risk is completely false--people invested money into Uber without any guarantees. And I'm not saying that these companies are without criticism or that they don't exploit workers. I'm just more baffled that alternatives haven't come along to disrupt them -- say a completely open, peer to peer network of drivers using open source applications that get paid through Square, Stripe, etc.
  - floody-berry 11y ago
    Why would something need to happen to me to point out exploitation? Uber and Airbnb make money off people breaking the law. They exploit hundreds of thousands of people wanting to make a little extra money so that they can make a lot. They and their investors deserve to be singled out and condemned. That this _doesn't_ happen regularly should be more shocking than pointing it out in less than diplomatic terms.
    - ahallock 11y ago
      > They exploit hundreds of thousands of people wanting to make a little extra money so that they can make a lot. Turning a profit does not automatically equal exploitation. How do you think companies create new jobs or make capital investments? You must think that profits are direct-deposited into the CEO's bank account, and never re-invested into technology, new jobs, or into open source software that benefits the community. And I don't think you should be using the word "exploit" so freely. Look at the sweat shops making designer clothes--that's exploitation. Taking a transactional fee off a house rented on Airbnb?--I don't think so. What was that house doing before Airbnb? It wasn't generating any revenue. Renters were not depending on that as a primary source of income. Save your outrage for real exploitation.
- herval 11y ago
  While I tend to agree with you on Über (as well as those food delivery services with "personal shoppers" which are "independent, but must work for us 8h/day"), why do you think Airbnb also qualifies as such?
ahallock 11y ago
> avoid paying benefits Did you ever consider that maybe these contractors value a flexible work schedule more than company benefits? I assume if they become employees they will lose whatever contractor benefits they had, including the flexible work schedule. I guess what I'm saying is, you're only talking about this from one perspective. I know that as a contractor, I value my flexible hours more than I do the typical benefits packages at companies. It allows me time to care for my grandmother and take her to appointments.
- pekk 11y ago
  No, you didn't understand. We are talking about people who are treated as employees, already required to show up at certain times, etc. They don't have "whatever contractor benefits." They are simply classified as contractors for tax purposes.
  - ahallock 11y ago
    Wait, we're talking about Uber, right? On their website it states: "As an independent contractor with Uber, you’ve got freedom and flexibility to drive whenever you have time. Set your own schedule, so you can be there for all of life’s most important moments." What am I missing?

by pekk 11y ago

lucaspiller 11y ago

Same in the UK as well. There are a load of rules, IR35, designed to prevent this sort of thing but they are pretty easy to bypass, and the only real benefit I've seen is accountants can now charge £300+ for a contract "review" to check you are covered. As an example of how easy it is, a friend of mine is contracting long term for the government. In order to ensure he is covered and classed as a contractor, over his summer holidays he will be sub-contracting out to someone else.

makomk 11y ago
One of the problems with classifying Uber drivers and the rest of the so-called "sharing economy" as contracting is that they're not allowed to subcontract out the work like your friend did.

floody-berry 11y ago

Companies like Uber are much worse than that. They're a glorified web app profiting off of hundreds of thousands of people who do all the work and bear all the risk while the only people getting rich are the scum at the top and their reprehensible backers. Uber, Airbnb, etc. should make their slogan "Loopholes 101: Exploitation on a global scale. You do the work, we make the money. Fuck you, we don't care!"

ahallock 11y ago
Your comment is filled with vitriol -- did you something happen to you? Why would Uber drivers be getting "rich" anyway? A decent living might be possible, but I don't think driving cars is valued as much in the economy as those creating jobs, nor should it be. And to say Uber bears no risk is completely false--people invested money into Uber without any guarantees. And I'm not saying that these companies are without criticism or that they don't exploit workers. I'm just more baffled that alternatives haven't come along to disrupt them -- say a completely open, peer to peer network of drivers using open source applications that get paid through Square, Stripe, etc.
- floody-berry 11y ago
  Why would something need to happen to me to point out exploitation? Uber and Airbnb make money off people breaking the law. They exploit hundreds of thousands of people wanting to make a little extra money so that they can make a lot. They and their investors deserve to be singled out and condemned. That this _doesn't_ happen regularly should be more shocking than pointing it out in less than diplomatic terms.
  - ahallock 11y ago
    > They exploit hundreds of thousands of people wanting to make a little extra money so that they can make a lot. Turning a profit does not automatically equal exploitation. How do you think companies create new jobs or make capital investments? You must think that profits are direct-deposited into the CEO's bank account, and never re-invested into technology, new jobs, or into open source software that benefits the community. And I don't think you should be using the word "exploit" so freely. Look at the sweat shops making designer clothes--that's exploitation. Taking a transactional fee off a house rented on Airbnb?--I don't think so. What was that house doing before Airbnb? It wasn't generating any revenue. Renters were not depending on that as a primary source of income. Save your outrage for real exploitation.
herval 11y ago
While I tend to agree with you on Über (as well as those food delivery services with "personal shoppers" which are "independent, but must work for us 8h/day"), why do you think Airbnb also qualifies as such?

ahallock 11y ago

> avoid paying benefits Did you ever consider that maybe these contractors value a flexible work schedule more than company benefits? I assume if they become employees they will lose whatever contractor benefits they had, including the flexible work schedule. I guess what I'm saying is, you're only talking about this from one perspective. I know that as a contractor, I value my flexible hours more than I do the typical benefits packages at companies. It allows me time to care for my grandmother and take her to appointments.

pekk 11y ago
No, you didn't understand. We are talking about people who are treated as employees, already required to show up at certain times, etc. They don't have "whatever contractor benefits." They are simply classified as contractors for tax purposes.
- ahallock 11y ago
  Wait, we're talking about Uber, right? On their website it states: "As an independent contractor with Uber, you’ve got freedom and flexibility to drive whenever you have time. Set your own schedule, so you can be there for all of life’s most important moments." What am I missing?