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This story is remniscent of the 1948 Israel war of independance which was also full of stories about neighbours suddenly being given the change to rape, steal a

by waps 11y ago

This story is remniscent of the 1948 Israel war of independance which was also full of stories about neighbours suddenly being given the change to rape, steal and pillage. One can only hope it ends in exactly the same way : 5 more Israels in the middle east. A Yezidi one. An Assyrian one. A Shi'a one. You can say whatever you want to say but this islam is an ideology which is centrally focused on it's supposed superiority and the focus is the reason for this superiority : that allah will guarantee military victory. Walk near any large station in a large Western European city and you can find out for yourself (if you look the least bit dark you will find out even if you don't want to, they'll walk up to you and ask). Paris - Gare du Nord, Brussels North, Amsterdam, ... you should go to Syria and fight and kill. Feign minimal intrest and you get to find out more. Why - because allah will make you win and we'll finally punish the infidels, and everybody you hate. They'll provide a wife, and openly talk about their "attitude" to captured women - what allah "allows". The main counterargument you hear on that street - it's not a way to victory, it's a way to death. I don't know about if this is similar in America. Does anyone have similar experiences in, say, New York ? Given where the recruitment happens in Western Europe and how successful it is in these western states, I find it extremely difficult to believe that this ISIS will remain confined to the middle east. I am terrified what will happen in Western Europe in the large cities if ISIS appears to become more successful. This ideology needs to die, if we are to have peace.

selimthegrim 11y ago
Why are European Muslims (admittedly the sad, hopeless losers) falling into this trap? Could it be a lack of civic, constitutional nationalism and Habermassian public civil religion as opposed to bog-standard ethnocracies?
- azth 11y ago
  It goes without saying that what ISIS is doing is against the teachings of Islam. What's happening is that they are making propaganda to the uneducated people who "have nothing to lose". They tell them to go carry weapons, fight for glory, and they'll be rewarded with Heaven. Pretty good deal to get out of their circumstances, right? The fact remains though that what they preach is not of Islam.
  - waps 11y ago
    > It goes without saying that what ISIS is doing is against the teachings of Islam. Yes and so is everything else muslims do. For instance, there is a death penalty for muslims who choose not to live under islamic rule. And the only thing that qualifies as islamic rule, of course, is a state ruled by a caliph. [1] And no, the law does not mention the case that there is no islamic state. So sharia quite literally states all muslims should kill eachother. For some reason this is not happening. So every muslim on the planet today has committed a sin in islam, punishable by death. Or to take another issue. There is not a single mention of a headscarf anywhere in either the quran or the hadith. It says to wear loose fitting clothes, the actual word used compares the clothes to being inside a tent. Now look around, do young muslim girls wear loose fitting clothes ? I am making a somewhat disingenuous argument, but the point is that your argument is disingenuous as well, and for the same reason : when comparing reality with a set of laws, reality is found lacking. This goes for ISIS and for every other law, principle, design, guideline, ... on our little blue ball in the dark. So your argument is wrong. Of course they don't follow islam perfectly, nobody does and everybody knows. The real reason is "goes without saying", of course, means that you're merely pointing out that there is massive social pressure on this board, and in this country, to agree with that assessment. That I am a racist if I think otherwise. But this is a bullshit argument. It is true, because it would be a socially very, VERY uncomfortable situation if it wasn't true ... which of course doesn't change the fact that it's utterly wrong. So in short, it doesn't go without saying at all. How much does it really match the religion's instructions ? I would argue it matches it pretty well. They've got a caliph and are waging war against anyone and everyone else, just like their prophet did. That is the basic problem with islamic terrorism : the terrorists, while not 100% perfectly right about their ideology, have a very good point. Islamic ideology glorifies this war of the prophet against the Roman Empire, and the Jewish and other states bordering it, and describes it as a war that can and should only end with total worldwide victory of the religion. This is what muslims are teaching their children (I hope we can at least agree on those basic facts). And like every other sane person on this planet, their children don't believe them. I didn't believe my parents when they talked about this sort of shit, and I've had a few talks with my daughter where she made it very clear she doesn't believe me either. But when they get excluded out of our society, hide in their religion for it's the only thing that hasn't completely rejected them yet (keep in mind that islamic marriages are arranged. If you have no money, no amount of good looks or talking can help you). And then these people who look like clerics read to them from the exact same books their parents are telling them to live by ... and those books say to fight and kill and you'll be rewarded. Those are the books their parents talked about when they were toddlers sitting on daddy's knee, when they were happy and provided for. Now they're criminals who failed with nothing to lose ... and these clerics read from those books, and those books say to fight and kill ... The reason this works is the ideology. And I don't care how uncomfortable that basic piece of information makes anyone. Fighting the people who are already lost is a loser's game. You must prevent, so to speak, toddlers from being raised with those books anywhere nearby. And given how this is escalating, it is a matter of time until we all agree on that point. The big question is, how many people need to die before we agree ? As I said, I have kids and find this "let's ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist" attitude EXTREMELY unacceptable. And yes, this will cost me a lot of karma on this board. Fuck social pressure. I hope everyone who lowers the integer next to my name on an internet server feels really good about themselves and the actions they took. [1] https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/01/02/hijra-in-reverse-the-muslim-duty-to-emigrate/ https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/01/02/hijra-in-rev... talks about this issue

by waps 11y ago

selimthegrim 11y ago

Why are European Muslims (admittedly the sad, hopeless losers) falling into this trap? Could it be a lack of civic, constitutional nationalism and Habermassian public civil religion as opposed to bog-standard ethnocracies?

azth 11y ago
It goes without saying that what ISIS is doing is against the teachings of Islam. What's happening is that they are making propaganda to the uneducated people who "have nothing to lose". They tell them to go carry weapons, fight for glory, and they'll be rewarded with Heaven. Pretty good deal to get out of their circumstances, right? The fact remains though that what they preach is not of Islam.
- waps 11y ago
  > It goes without saying that what ISIS is doing is against the teachings of Islam. Yes and so is everything else muslims do. For instance, there is a death penalty for muslims who choose not to live under islamic rule. And the only thing that qualifies as islamic rule, of course, is a state ruled by a caliph. [1] And no, the law does not mention the case that there is no islamic state. So sharia quite literally states all muslims should kill eachother. For some reason this is not happening. So every muslim on the planet today has committed a sin in islam, punishable by death. Or to take another issue. There is not a single mention of a headscarf anywhere in either the quran or the hadith. It says to wear loose fitting clothes, the actual word used compares the clothes to being inside a tent. Now look around, do young muslim girls wear loose fitting clothes ? I am making a somewhat disingenuous argument, but the point is that your argument is disingenuous as well, and for the same reason : when comparing reality with a set of laws, reality is found lacking. This goes for ISIS and for every other law, principle, design, guideline, ... on our little blue ball in the dark. So your argument is wrong. Of course they don't follow islam perfectly, nobody does and everybody knows. The real reason is "goes without saying", of course, means that you're merely pointing out that there is massive social pressure on this board, and in this country, to agree with that assessment. That I am a racist if I think otherwise. But this is a bullshit argument. It is true, because it would be a socially very, VERY uncomfortable situation if it wasn't true ... which of course doesn't change the fact that it's utterly wrong. So in short, it doesn't go without saying at all. How much does it really match the religion's instructions ? I would argue it matches it pretty well. They've got a caliph and are waging war against anyone and everyone else, just like their prophet did. That is the basic problem with islamic terrorism : the terrorists, while not 100% perfectly right about their ideology, have a very good point. Islamic ideology glorifies this war of the prophet against the Roman Empire, and the Jewish and other states bordering it, and describes it as a war that can and should only end with total worldwide victory of the religion. This is what muslims are teaching their children (I hope we can at least agree on those basic facts). And like every other sane person on this planet, their children don't believe them. I didn't believe my parents when they talked about this sort of shit, and I've had a few talks with my daughter where she made it very clear she doesn't believe me either. But when they get excluded out of our society, hide in their religion for it's the only thing that hasn't completely rejected them yet (keep in mind that islamic marriages are arranged. If you have no money, no amount of good looks or talking can help you). And then these people who look like clerics read to them from the exact same books their parents are telling them to live by ... and those books say to fight and kill and you'll be rewarded. Those are the books their parents talked about when they were toddlers sitting on daddy's knee, when they were happy and provided for. Now they're criminals who failed with nothing to lose ... and these clerics read from those books, and those books say to fight and kill ... The reason this works is the ideology. And I don't care how uncomfortable that basic piece of information makes anyone. Fighting the people who are already lost is a loser's game. You must prevent, so to speak, toddlers from being raised with those books anywhere nearby. And given how this is escalating, it is a matter of time until we all agree on that point. The big question is, how many people need to die before we agree ? As I said, I have kids and find this "let's ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist" attitude EXTREMELY unacceptable. And yes, this will cost me a lot of karma on this board. Fuck social pressure. I hope everyone who lowers the integer next to my name on an internet server feels really good about themselves and the actions they took. [1] https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/01/02/hijra-in-reverse-the-muslim-duty-to-emigrate/ https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/01/02/hijra-in-rev... talks about this issue