3 ms·

Nadya: thanks for the reply. My comment about GNU/Linux was maybe too sarcastic, but in the article to which I was responding, Stallman did write "I developed

by tomslee 11y ago

Nadya: thanks for the reply. My comment about GNU/Linux was maybe too sarcastic, but in the article to which I was responding, Stallman did write "I developed the GNU operating system, which is often called Linux", which you have to admit is a bizarre statement. But I really don't think I mistake free/libre for free/gratis. Even if a web service is built on FOSS, you cannot see if it is tracking you, any more than I can tell what data is in a LibreOffice spreadsheet. Surely the NSA open source effort demonstrates that in spades. As for the alternative solution: I do agree with Stallman's third suggestion: surveillance (both corporate and state) is a legal and political problem which needs to be seen in that light.

Nadya 11y ago
>Stallman did write "I developed the GNU operating system, which is often called Linux", which you have to admit is a bizarre statement. The statement is not incorrect or bizarre and is entirely accurate. GNU is the Operating System. Linux is the Kernel. Debian runs on the GNU Operating System (using the Linux Kernel). It would be like calling Mac OS X "XNU" instead. We don't do that because it's named after the OS and not the kernel. When people refer to "Linux Distributions" they are incorrectly referring to "GNU Distributions". I can think of several explanations for why we call it "Linux" and not "GNU" - but I don't personally give a shit. Stallman is correct that the Operating System is called Linux by most people though. Does it matter? To him, I imagine it does or he wouldn't make a big deal about it. Most people don't care though. Why? Well they probably didn't contribute to writing GNU. >Even if a web service is built on FOSS, you cannot see if it is tracking you, any more than I can tell what data is in a LibreOffice spreadsheet. Correct. Even if a web service is FOSS there is no way to confirm the public facing code base is the one used for the web service. That relies on a bit of trust. I believe he spoke more on this and I'd have to find it as I can't remember offhand. I believe his terminology for "web service" is a bit different than how most people take it nowadays - so this might also be an issue of semantics. I imagine people might take it to been SAAS "web services" but I believe he uses it in a more broad scope. A lot of web services can be 'built and ran yourself' so he isn't wrong, it just isn't very practical or realistic. Which is a fine criticism. You can be "technically correct" but still "in practice; disconnected with reality". Which is where I stand with a lot of Stallman's claims. It's not that he is wrong, it's that what he is asking for (in the modern world) is simply unrealistic and impractical.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > GNU is the Operating System. No, its not, at least not for the thing Stallman refers to that is "often called Linux". GNU is a set of userland tools. GNU has, at best, no more claim to be the operating system than Linux does. Actual OS's based on the Linux kernel typically combine Linux, some GNU components, and many non-GNU components. There may be a GNU operating system, but real Linux-based OS's aren't it.
- tomslee 11y ago
  I do agree with your final sentence. At least, I think he knows the privacy/surveillance problems with SAAS and so has turned away from the Web (I heard he doesn't use browsers?) but would still like to see software as a liberating path forward. If you work on a self-contained computer, I suspect he is right.
  - Nadya 11y ago
    Taking from his statements here: https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html >I generally do not connect to web sites from my own machine, aside from a few sites I have some special relationship with. I usually fetch web pages from other sites by sending mail to a program (see git://git.gnu.org/womb/hacks.git) that fetches them, much like wget, and then mails them back to me. Again - we can agree on the last sentence if nothing else. I feel it is a very fair criticism.

by tomslee 11y ago

Nadya 11y ago

>Stallman did write "I developed the GNU operating system, which is often called Linux", which you have to admit is a bizarre statement. The statement is not incorrect or bizarre and is entirely accurate. GNU is the Operating System. Linux is the Kernel. Debian runs on the GNU Operating System (using the Linux Kernel). It would be like calling Mac OS X "XNU" instead. We don't do that because it's named after the OS and not the kernel. When people refer to "Linux Distributions" they are incorrectly referring to "GNU Distributions". I can think of several explanations for why we call it "Linux" and not "GNU" - but I don't personally give a shit. Stallman is correct that the Operating System is called Linux by most people though. Does it matter? To him, I imagine it does or he wouldn't make a big deal about it. Most people don't care though. Why? Well they probably didn't contribute to writing GNU. >Even if a web service is built on FOSS, you cannot see if it is tracking you, any more than I can tell what data is in a LibreOffice spreadsheet. Correct. Even if a web service is FOSS there is no way to confirm the public facing code base is the one used for the web service. That relies on a bit of trust. I believe he spoke more on this and I'd have to find it as I can't remember offhand. I believe his terminology for "web service" is a bit different than how most people take it nowadays - so this might also be an issue of semantics. I imagine people might take it to been SAAS "web services" but I believe he uses it in a more broad scope. A lot of web services can be 'built and ran yourself' so he isn't wrong, it just isn't very practical or realistic. Which is a fine criticism. You can be "technically correct" but still "in practice; disconnected with reality". Which is where I stand with a lot of Stallman's claims. It's not that he is wrong, it's that what he is asking for (in the modern world) is simply unrealistic and impractical.

dragonwriter 11y ago
> GNU is the Operating System. No, its not, at least not for the thing Stallman refers to that is "often called Linux". GNU is a set of userland tools. GNU has, at best, no more claim to be the operating system than Linux does. Actual OS's based on the Linux kernel typically combine Linux, some GNU components, and many non-GNU components. There may be a GNU operating system, but real Linux-based OS's aren't it.
tomslee 11y ago
I do agree with your final sentence. At least, I think he knows the privacy/surveillance problems with SAAS and so has turned away from the Web (I heard he doesn't use browsers?) but would still like to see software as a liberating path forward. If you work on a self-contained computer, I suspect he is right.
- Nadya 11y ago
  Taking from his statements here: https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html >I generally do not connect to web sites from my own machine, aside from a few sites I have some special relationship with. I usually fetch web pages from other sites by sending mail to a program (see git://git.gnu.org/womb/hacks.git) that fetches them, much like wget, and then mails them back to me. Again - we can agree on the last sentence if nothing else. I feel it is a very fair criticism.