6 ms·

This is not democratic. In a democracy, the people are the sovereign. The people cannot be the sovereign if important decisions are kept in secret. This is a

by madez 11y ago

This is not democratic. In a democracy, the people are the sovereign. The people cannot be the sovereign if important decisions are kept in secret. This is a serious problem.

PythonicAlpha 11y ago
The problem today is, that our democratic systems are eroding world-wide. Since the EU has more and more influence in Germany, German politicians are regularly using the EU to circumvent democratic decisions in our country. When a law is not popular in Germany, they just pass it to the EU, where it is much easier to bring them into effect. Then they pressure our own parliament: "We have to comply to EU standards" and they just pass it on. There even was at least one case, where such a law was passed without thinking about it and our constitutional court had to cancel it as not constitutional. These cases, where democratic decisions are circumvented are not single ones any more -- they are the rule, not the exception.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  Yep. This is how the Data Retention Directive came about, for example. National politicians couldn't get it passed at home, so they did it at the EU level.
- pmezard 11y ago
  It works both ways. Laws or litigations brought on European level may be good or bad depending on their content. It could be useful to work around national systems sometimes.
seiji 11y ago
> In a democracy, the people are the sovereign. The US isn't a democracy, it's a representative republic. Big difference. Your only power is voting for elected officials (modulo jury nullification, rioting, and overthrowing the government itself). If your elected representatives fail to represent the viewpoints of the actual public, the system has failed. Right now, the system has been gerrymandered to an extent that it qualifies as failed (plus the introduction of mass media populist manipulation plus the reduction in popular education levels allowing such easy manipulation).
- Nursie 11y ago
  Yeah, but the EU was supposed to be democratic, and it's the EU that folded like wet newspaper in this case!
  - lumberjack 11y ago
    They setup the EP (European Parliament) to give us the illusion of democracy but the EP is just a Goebbels piece, theater. The MEP (elected members of parliament) are toothless. Good consequence of this is that they are more reachable than any other sort of politician in Europe, except for city governments, but that of course will change if they actually get any teeth. If they manage to pass anything at all it only happens because the big heads do not understand the issue and once they do it will get reverted or annulled. However as it stands the EU has huge issues with lack of democracy, lack of accountability, and lack of transparency. And it is not looking good in that department.
- antientropic 11y ago
  > The US isn't a democracy, it's a representative republic. Please stop this silly meme. "Republic" and "democracy" are not mutually exclusive terms. Under the usual modern interpretation of those terms, the US is a republic and a democracy.
  - theandrewbailey 11y ago
    It's not a silly meme. One better describes the system.
7952 11y ago
But if the public don't care about something nor will the politicans. And people do not care about these kind of environmental issues. Just look at how relaxed people are about vehicle exhaust. Diesel emissions alone can have several carcinogenic chemicals. We treat the environment as somnething passive that we have no control over. Environmentalists should personalise the argument instead of relying on cold scientific fact. The headline should be "politicians cause cancer".
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  > And people do not care about these kind of environmental issues. Just look at how relaxed people are about vehicle exhaust. People do care, but maybe not most of the general public. You could argue public apathy is only because they are not well-informed, however.
  - pyre 11y ago
    What percentage of the general public is apathetic because it doesn't coincide with many of the their daily concerns/struggles?
- undersuit 11y ago
  The general public care enough that Diesel engines have improved considerably for the engines they are routinely around. Low sulphur fuels and technological advances have made diesel engines on public roads more efficient than petrol. We still have horrible things like cargo ships burning bunker diesel, but out of sight out of mind.
drawkbox 11y ago
Corporations and capital have become very powerful people, almost modern day kings. When you work at a corporation, it is more like a dictatorship than a democracy. Capital + companies are just really big people with all the pull and just doing what they do all day. There is a way to win though, just get lots of capital and you have the ability to change things. Until then, we can watch the wheels go round.
- madez 11y ago
  This is because many people buckle to their boss. They are afraid of losing their job, so they better don't argue. This has dire consequences, as we can already see. I made my boss clear that he's not doing me a faviour by employing me, but instead we've made a fair deal: I work in the companies interest, they give me money. My leader in the company can help to organize and represent my work, however, he can not treat me like a resource nor give me orders. I fared very well by being clear on this in the beginning. Now I am basically free to work on what I think what needs to be done. It's a decision to accept authority over you. You do not have to. Often, you shouldn't.
  - hariis 11y ago
    The reason people buckle is because they are victims of their desires/wants or in other words, they are attached or identified with physical possessions (want a big house, SUV, latest phone etc). As long as this is the case, people will eventually succumb and this is what the people at the top are counting on. Once you get out of the hold of your desires/wants, nobody can have any power over you.
    - jo_ 11y ago
      People buckle because they are victims of NEEDS. If I didn't have marketable skills, or if I existed in a market which was oversaturated with people as skilled as myself, sure, I could argue with my boss or exercise my powers, but that means risking a job loss. I'd be replaced by someone as capable, but with less inclination to argue. My 'wants' might include such things as, "being able to eat," and, "not sleeping on the street." Sure, it's possible to get overzealous with one's aspirations for physical goods, but I think that overlooks the authentic fear that many people have over being in a precarious financial situation.

by madez 11y ago

This is not democratic. In a democracy, the people are the sovereign. The people cannot be the sovereign if important decisions are kept in secret. This is a serious problem.

PythonicAlpha 11y ago

The problem today is, that our democratic systems are eroding world-wide. Since the EU has more and more influence in Germany, German politicians are regularly using the EU to circumvent democratic decisions in our country. When a law is not popular in Germany, they just pass it to the EU, where it is much easier to bring them into effect. Then they pressure our own parliament: "We have to comply to EU standards" and they just pass it on. There even was at least one case, where such a law was passed without thinking about it and our constitutional court had to cancel it as not constitutional. These cases, where democratic decisions are circumvented are not single ones any more -- they are the rule, not the exception.

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
Yep. This is how the Data Retention Directive came about, for example. National politicians couldn't get it passed at home, so they did it at the EU level.
pmezard 11y ago
It works both ways. Laws or litigations brought on European level may be good or bad depending on their content. It could be useful to work around national systems sometimes.

seiji 11y ago

> In a democracy, the people are the sovereign. The US isn't a democracy, it's a representative republic. Big difference. Your only power is voting for elected officials (modulo jury nullification, rioting, and overthrowing the government itself). If your elected representatives fail to represent the viewpoints of the actual public, the system has failed. Right now, the system has been gerrymandered to an extent that it qualifies as failed (plus the introduction of mass media populist manipulation plus the reduction in popular education levels allowing such easy manipulation).

Nursie 11y ago
Yeah, but the EU was supposed to be democratic, and it's the EU that folded like wet newspaper in this case!
- lumberjack 11y ago
  They setup the EP (European Parliament) to give us the illusion of democracy but the EP is just a Goebbels piece, theater. The MEP (elected members of parliament) are toothless. Good consequence of this is that they are more reachable than any other sort of politician in Europe, except for city governments, but that of course will change if they actually get any teeth. If they manage to pass anything at all it only happens because the big heads do not understand the issue and once they do it will get reverted or annulled. However as it stands the EU has huge issues with lack of democracy, lack of accountability, and lack of transparency. And it is not looking good in that department.
antientropic 11y ago
> The US isn't a democracy, it's a representative republic. Please stop this silly meme. "Republic" and "democracy" are not mutually exclusive terms. Under the usual modern interpretation of those terms, the US is a republic and a democracy.
- theandrewbailey 11y ago
  It's not a silly meme. One better describes the system.

7952 11y ago

But if the public don't care about something nor will the politicans. And people do not care about these kind of environmental issues. Just look at how relaxed people are about vehicle exhaust. Diesel emissions alone can have several carcinogenic chemicals. We treat the environment as somnething passive that we have no control over. Environmentalists should personalise the argument instead of relying on cold scientific fact. The headline should be "politicians cause cancer".

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
> And people do not care about these kind of environmental issues. Just look at how relaxed people are about vehicle exhaust. People do care, but maybe not most of the general public. You could argue public apathy is only because they are not well-informed, however.
- pyre 11y ago
  What percentage of the general public is apathetic because it doesn't coincide with many of the their daily concerns/struggles?
undersuit 11y ago
The general public care enough that Diesel engines have improved considerably for the engines they are routinely around. Low sulphur fuels and technological advances have made diesel engines on public roads more efficient than petrol. We still have horrible things like cargo ships burning bunker diesel, but out of sight out of mind.

drawkbox 11y ago

Corporations and capital have become very powerful people, almost modern day kings. When you work at a corporation, it is more like a dictatorship than a democracy. Capital + companies are just really big people with all the pull and just doing what they do all day. There is a way to win though, just get lots of capital and you have the ability to change things. Until then, we can watch the wheels go round.

madez 11y ago
This is because many people buckle to their boss. They are afraid of losing their job, so they better don't argue. This has dire consequences, as we can already see. I made my boss clear that he's not doing me a faviour by employing me, but instead we've made a fair deal: I work in the companies interest, they give me money. My leader in the company can help to organize and represent my work, however, he can not treat me like a resource nor give me orders. I fared very well by being clear on this in the beginning. Now I am basically free to work on what I think what needs to be done. It's a decision to accept authority over you. You do not have to. Often, you shouldn't.
- hariis 11y ago
  The reason people buckle is because they are victims of their desires/wants or in other words, they are attached or identified with physical possessions (want a big house, SUV, latest phone etc). As long as this is the case, people will eventually succumb and this is what the people at the top are counting on. Once you get out of the hold of your desires/wants, nobody can have any power over you.
  - jo_ 11y ago
    People buckle because they are victims of NEEDS. If I didn't have marketable skills, or if I existed in a market which was oversaturated with people as skilled as myself, sure, I could argue with my boss or exercise my powers, but that means risking a job loss. I'd be replaced by someone as capable, but with less inclination to argue. My 'wants' might include such things as, "being able to eat," and, "not sleeping on the street." Sure, it's possible to get overzealous with one's aspirations for physical goods, but I think that overlooks the authentic fear that many people have over being in a precarious financial situation.