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"Speciality coffee doesn’t offer anything to the consumer who wants to drink great espresso at home, but doesn’t want a new hobby." This is an amazing take awa

• keithpeter 11y ago
  I take the OA's point, however most of us (I assume) will be using a cafetiere or a paper filter based coffee maker at home rather than doing the full artisan roast and grind. In my case, I'm using pre-ground coffee in foil bags from the local supermarket at around £3 to £4 per 227g standard pack. I make myself a large diluted coffee each morning using a 3-cup mokapot. The 5 minute prep time isn't onerous and the economics are much better than buying a machine of the kind in the OA along with all the capsules. Coffee hacking question: If I got a grinder capable of grinding beans to the fineness needed for a moka pot, would I notice a significant difference in taste?
  • jurre 11y ago
    Yes, freshly ground coffee tastes much, much better!
  • peteretep 11y ago
    My suspicion is you might see the same improvement that members of the high-fi community get when they switch to gold-played cables and electricity smoothers.
    • stinos 11y ago
      Your suspicion is likely wrong though - I have no science to back this up but am 100% sure in blind tetsts people with normally developped taste buds would pick the freshly ground one from the pre-ground one. The difference in taste is just too big to ignore (or at least the difference between the ground vs pre-ground I have here at home is). Unlike the improvements you compare them to, which can usually not even be measured with devices, let alone heard.
      • bambax 11y ago
        Nespresso capsules are made of aluminium and completely sealed, so they probably retain all the qualities of the coffee inside until the very moment they're used. Blind tests would be very interesting, I hope that's what's coming in a future article!
        • theCodeStig 11y ago
          Coffee goes stale due to oxidization, and contact with the gases that coffee itself puts off (commonly known as off-gasing). You can halt the oxidization in a capsule if you replace the oxygen with an inert gas, but how will you prevent off-gasing?
          • liquid8r 11y ago
            When you roast beans, you introduce CO2. For a few hours after roasting, CO2 escapes, which is the process called degassing or off-gassing. When you grind, more CO2 escapes. Limiting CO2 impact on coffee is well understood by the industry -- you can degas in a nitrogen environment, for example. We at HiLine Coffee did a lot of testing with different single-serve pods, and I can assure you that you can tell the quality changes over time (what you get with 1 month old pod and what you get after 6 months taste very different). This is one of the reasons why Nespresso, Keurig and other large manufacturers don't state the date of the roast on packaging. People wouldn't want to buy 6 months old coffee. Instead they buy coffee that is "best consumed by" a date in 6 months, whatever that means, particularly since stale coffee doesn't have any discernible health effects other than sadness from poor taste. After spending more than a year working on new ways to better preserve ground coffee in single serve packaging, we determined that the only sure way to deliver fresh and great tasting coffee in a pod is to roast for each individual order. This is the model that we are testing now. If you want to try it, check us out at https://www.hilinecoffee.com https://www.hilinecoffee.com or send us an email for free sample.
      • jarek 11y ago
        Not that I love the gold-plated set, but: "Your suspicion is likely wrong though - I have no science to back this up but am 100% sure in blind tests people with normally developed ears would pick the gold cables from the copper one. The difference in sound is just too big to ignore (or at least the difference between the gold vs copper I have here at home is). Unlike the improvements you compare them to, which can usually not even be measured with devices, let alone described." Either you measure it and do a double-blind or it's just another subjective perception. See those tests that suggest people can't tell expensive wine from cheap wine without context.
    • 2muchcoffeeman 11y ago
      Correctly roasted and ground beans are probably the single most important factor for a good cup if you are willing to drink different styles. The correct roast with the correct grind will produce great coffee from a $20 dripolator from Kmart. The problem with pre-ground beans, is that ground beans go stale in a matter of hours. Whole beans from supermarkets are no better since you usually can't tell when they were roasted and they are most likely also stale.
      • pizza234 11y ago
        > The problem with pre-ground beans, is that ground beans go stale in a matter of hours. Whole beans from supermarkets are no better since you usually can't tell when they were roasted and they are most likely also stale. The point is that in a blind test, "a lot %" of the people would never distinguish a freshly opened pack and a pack opened a week before, as much as "a lot %" of the people would never distinguish gold-plated from non-plated ones. Of course, it's easy to distinguish a "great" coffee [espresso] from a "non-great" one, but then we're talking about a much wider context (that is, many other facts weigh in). [edit: added note]
        • jacobolus 11y ago
          That’s nonsense. I highly recommend you do the experiment yourself. Get some whole freshly roasted coffee beans, put one half in the freezer, and grind the other half and let them sit in an open container for two weeks. At the end of the two weeks, grind the beans that were sitting in the freezer. Now brew both sets of beans and do a blind tasting. You’ll be able to tell the difference, your coffee-drinker friends will be able to tell the difference, fans of instant coffee will be able to tell the difference, and if you have access to a chemistry lab, their mass spectrometers will definitely be able to tell the difference. It’s completely different from gold-plated audio cables, where you can take very precise measurements and prove categorically that they have no effect.
          • deleted 11y ago
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  • _benedict 11y ago
    My personal experience is freshly ground coffee has a much better taste. Although not much better than when you first open a bag of store-bought ground coffee. If you don't notice the coffee get less flavourful over the course of a couple of weeks, and then tastier when you open a new bag, then there's a reasonable chance you won't notice a sufficient difference in freshly ground coffee. One thing you unequivocally get each morning is the smell of freshly ground coffee. It's possible this is what makes me believe I taste more flavour; either way, it's enjoyable.
    • nightski 11y ago
      Yea personally I find freshly ground makes a massive difference. In fact I was just going to ask how they keep beans fresh in those pods... Even when buying whole beans though it only lasts a week max before I can start to taste a big difference. You can usually tell as gasses are no longer released when pouring hot water over the freshly ground beans.
      • JupiterMoon 11y ago
        Freeze them they'll stay fresh.
        • JupiterMoon 11y ago
          Well this does work. Storing your ground coffee in a sealed container in the freezer is the single easiest thing you can do to improve the flavour of your coffee.
    • saalaa 11y ago
      > freshly ground coffee This is actually the single most determining factor for a good coffee.
      • kazinator 11y ago
        No, it isn't. Freshly roasted is. The aroma and flavor of coffee degrades rapidly after roasting, whether you grind it or not. Grinding it accelerates the process, but you can easily get coffee in unground form, and the difference between ground and unground is visually obviously: a vendor can't sneak you ground coffee if you want unground. How long ago beans were roasted isn't visually obvious.
  • blunte 11y ago
    The oils in coffee beans are part of what give coffee its flavor. If the beans you prefer are oilier, then freshness of the bean/grounds will really make a difference in the taste. So for those beans, keeping the beans sealed up and only grinding what you need when you need it will result in more flavor. That said, grinding takes time and requires frequent cleaning of the grinder (in my experience). So it's a question of modest/moderate flavor improvement vs inconvenience.
  • mjlee 11y ago
    I have found that the biggest improvement in taste comes from using freshly roasted beans. Freshly grinding those beans comes a very close second. That is to say, freshly ground stale beans still taste stale. Pre-ground fresh beans still taste OK after a week (but won’t be suitable for an espresso machine.) The biggest difference in taste comes from selecting specific beans and roasting them carefully. You may or may not find it an improvement. It seems most supermarket coffees are selected to have the same kinds of taste and I find them nearly universally bland. When I make coffee for other people I get a 50/50 split between those who immediately notice an enjoyable difference from supermarket coffee and those who don't care. Personally, I find instant coffee very unappealing but some people enjoy the taste of that too. I think the closest comparison is wine. Nearly everybody likes wine and accepts that different grapes (beans) give different flavours. Most people agree that the very, very cheap wine often tastes like silver polish. The remainder may or may not then have a preference between a £15 bottle and a £5 bottle. Those who do then may or may not differentiate between specific qualities of those wines. I'd suggest buying a bag or two from a speciality roaster such as www.hasbean.co.uk Get it pre-ground and see if you prefer the difference. If you do then consider getting a grinder for another leap in quality. The same website has a brew guide for the moka pot – it’s a great way of making coffee and everybody uses it differently. You might enjoy experimenting with it.
    • keithpeter 11y ago
      I'd suggest buying a bag or two from a speciality roaster such as www.hasbean.co.uk Get it pre-ground and see if you prefer the difference. If you do then consider getting a grinder for another leap in quality OK I ordered Nicaragua Finca La Escondida Ethiopia Yirgacheffe Kochere Kore Natural ground for expresso and will try both with friends/SO to see which we like. ('Funky' is good).
  • calpaterson 11y ago
    I have a rhino grinder (http://coffeehit.co.uk/rhino-hand-grinder-1005 http://coffeehit.co.uk/rhino-hand-grinder-1005) with my 3-cup in the morning. Freshly grinding it makes the coffee taste a little better but mainly it lets you keep coffee longer because beans keep longer than pre-ground coffee. When you get to the bottom of the bag the coffee is still as good as at the start.
    • keithpeter 11y ago
      Comments suggest so-so with expresso but OK with Moka pot. Will purchase on the grounds (sic) that it will be better than my food mixer grinder add-on.
      • calpaterson 11y ago
        I think you would struggle to get the right fineness for an expresso machine. Moka pot fineness is about as fine as a rhino grinder can do
  • rorykoehler 11y ago
    My experience of making espresso based coffees with an amazingly well informed and experienced barista. There are so many nuances that make a great cup of coffee that it's hard to pin it down. I used the same fresh beans, same machine, same water etc etc and his coffee tasted a world better than mine because he had the timing and technique to making down. He explained and demonstrated that even small things like how densely you pack the coffee in the filter basket makes a considerable difference. It was an eye opening experience.
    • smil 11y ago
      >There are so many nuances that make a great cup of coffee that it's hard to pin it down. Sounds like "placebo."
      • gdubs 11y ago
        Not really. Brew temperature, extraction time, tamp pressure, bean freshness, all have a measurable impact on crema, bitterness, etc. there are many variables which combine to form a good cup, or a bad one. This is not the same as saying there's some mysterious magic to a good espresso.
      • theCodeStig 11y ago
        I assure you it's not. There's a lot of technique that comes into play.
    • Ntrails 11y ago
      Some coffee houses have pressure limited tampers to heko ensure every coffee is the same regardless of who is making it. Everything has an impact, size of grind, water pressure/temp, freshness, and then the myriad of little things. One of my pet peeves is watching the barrista attach the coffee handle and leave it there whilst finding a cup/faffing all the while the coffee sits next to a hot plate and gets ruined :(
  • josteink 11y ago
    > Coffee hacking question: If I got a grinder capable of grinding beans to the fineness needed for a moka pot, would I notice a significant difference in taste? Coffee starts losing aroma quickly after grinding. If you buy your coffee in a speciality-store and they grind it for you there, you can definitely smell the freshness of the coffee as you take it home. It's fantastic, but after not too long that fresh aroma dissipates, and wont return. Imagine if all that aroma could have gone right into your cup. With a proper grinder at home, you always grind the coffee you need, when you need it. And you will have all that aroma in every single cup. Besides the digital weight, I think a proper coffee-grinder is one of the most important things a proper coffee-geek can have. You probably don't need nor want an Italian art-deco piece of 60s futuristic polished steel priced at $1000 and upwards. But investing at least $100 into a entry-level grinder will get you coffee miles ahead that pre-ground stuff. I assure you it's a noticeable return on investment. So yeah. Grinder is definitely recommended.
    • seszett 11y ago
      > You probably don't need nor want an Italian art-deco piece of 60s futuristic polished steel priced at $1000 and upwards. But investing at least $100 into a entry-level grinder will get you coffee miles ahead that pre-ground stuff. I assure you it's a noticeable return on investment. What about grandma's old manual grinder? Is it not up to the task? Such grinders also sell for much less than 100$.
      • josteink 11y ago
        They work, but you get incredibly fed up with them after not too long. They especially suck for early morning breakfast-coffee. If you can live with that, then no problem. Much better coffee then preground.
• r00fus 11y ago
  I've taken it a step further - I use pre-packaged cold-brewed coffee. Cons: Doesn't have as good a taste Pros: Stomach acid is lower than warm brew, prep time: 30s w/milk + sweetener, and I take it cold so I don't need a double-wall mug, just a large strawcup. If I want warm, I heat the milk beforehand. So far so good - costs have been less than buying beans for my espresso superautomatic much less packets for a keurig/nespresso. All I have to do is to stock up at TJs for a month at a time.
  • sjg007 11y ago
    but you already own a super automatic/keurig/nespresso.
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  • jschulenklopper 11y ago
    > All I have to do is to stock up at TJs for a month at a time. ... or you make the cold brew yourself. For just one cup of cold brew for the next morning, I grind about 20 gr. of coffee, and add 80 gr. of cold water from the tap. One gentle stir, and then the cup goes in the refrigerator for the night. The next morning, I pour the coffee through a paper filter, add ice, perhaps some sugar syrup and/or a little milk. That's just for one cup. Blue Bottle Coffee has a recipe on their site using a pound of ground coffee. The result can be stored for at least 5-6 days in the refrigerator.
• 2muchcoffeeman 11y ago
  Except that a Nespresso does not produce espresso. I guess it's an upgrade from a plunger. The coffee is ok and consistent though.
  • psykovsky 11y ago
    Perhaps Nespresso means "Not Espresso"
  • antimagic 11y ago
    OK, I'll bite - why is a Nespresso not an espresso? The water is under pressure, and it produces a crema - as far as I'm aware these are the two critical criteria for deciding if a coffee is an espresso or not...
    • theCodeStig 11y ago
      The brew ratio is not within the commonly accepted range of espresso.
    • 2muchcoffeeman 11y ago
      If you want to get pedantic, I think a Nespresso would fail the Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano standard - espressoitaliano.org :) But really I disqualify it because Nespresso simply does not look or taste like an espresso. The crema is always a bit pale and it lacks in concentration of suspended and dissolved solids. They later being important if you want to make a milk based drink that tastes of coffee.
• jahnu 11y ago
  It's a serious and well made point. It's worth pointing out that there are a spectrum of options. For me I went with a Gaggia Classic, a not terrible grinder (less than $200) and not terrible supermarket beans. I don't wait for the machine to heat up for 30 mins (only till the light comes on) and I might even grind the beans the day before, and I always use a double shot of coffee to make a single espresso. All this is a horror to someone who likes speciality coffee but I have compared it to Nespresso and it's far superior tasting and cheaper even if it does fall short of what's possible.
  • AnthonBerg 11y ago
    If you didn't know, a single espresso with a double shot of coffee is called a ristretto and is usually delicious :) None of it sounds horrible at all! Cappuccinos from ristrettos are also really good. Sometimes they taste like brown sugar.
    • jahnu 11y ago
      Cool. Didn't know that. Anyway, it's just a little more work than a nespresso, cheaper and not as involved as serious coffee making.
      • AnthonBerg 11y ago
        Agreed! To me it's even much more satisfying to experience as much of the process as possible. I've roasted green beans on occasion - it's a very nice social experience and has further increased my appreciation for the whole global coffee pipeline!
• moron4hire 11y ago
  As someone who has been a home brewer for years, you don't home brew because it's cheap or convenient or even better than store bought. People home brew because they want the experience of the hobby. Which was the article's point: people want espresso at home, not a hobby. Beer can be had at home without the hobby, or it can be had with the hobby. So I think beer brewers are already there. Though, to contradict myself, there is a very small proportion of brewers that are doing micro kegs that are supposed to bring more of a true draught flavor to the home without the hassle of installing taps and lines and a pressurization system. It is not so great (I've only had it for Heineken and Newcastle, which aren't great beers to begin with). But it's the closest thing to "on tap" at home you can get without making a hobby of running a bar.
  • jghn 11y ago
    "you don't home brew because it's cheap or convenient or even better than store bought." I agree w/ your general premise about it being for the hobby (that's 90% of why I homebrew) but disagree with the above statement. I've known homebrewers who absolutely brew because it's cheap - I'm sure you've encountered them as well. These are the people who calculate the price per ounce and then proudly talk about how their Great Homebrew is cheaper than Crappy Macrolager. I know many people who do it because it's better than store bought, although that's becoming harder to justify as craft beer becomes better & more ubiquitous it's exceeding the capabilities of many homebrewers. Another factor you left out, and what originally led me to homebrewing, is homebrewing because not all styles are easy to come by at the store. I started brewing because it was the only way I could taste certain things without traveling to their homelands.
    • coldpie 11y ago
      Nice post. I also homebrew. What types of styles are you talking about that you can find in a store? I'd love to try making them :)
      • jghn 11y ago
        The one that drew me in the first place was mild. As an example, they recently covered it on BrewinWith Style and were unable to find any commercial examples locally. Things like altbier can be difficult to find, at the time some of the Belgian styles were very underrepresented. These days for me it's a lot of the more regional British variations but that's also because that's what I've grown to like in general. Take a spin through the style guide and ask yourself on each one "how often do I see these" when they list the commercial examples. And then nite that oftentimes those examples are stretching things a bit already
• drb311 11y ago
  The insight applies to any business: you either help the customer save time or help them kill time.
• deleted 11y ago
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