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Your comment indicates that you think that in the lender/borrower relationship only one side has responsibilities. The Germans via the ECB flooded Greece, Port

Your comment indicates that you think that in the lender/borrower relationship only one side has responsibilities. The Germans via the ECB flooded Greece, Portugal, Spain with easy money in the early 2000s. It is incorrect to say, "...in no way at fault..." Greece was bullied and has been bullied and the average Greek has suffered as a result. They are not blameless by any means but what has happened to Greece is not just.

mafribe 11y ago
I'm sorry that's misleading. Germany has one vote on the ECB, the same number as Greece, Spain, Portugal, Malta and every other country. Greece was perfectly happy to get cheap money. Instead of investing it in education, improved prductivity, Greece has been wasting it on an oversized army, extremely early retirement with cushy pensions for government employees, pointless olympic games, hagiographic articles in the NY Times and so on.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >I'm sorry that's misleading. Germany has one vote on the ECB, the same number as Greece, Spain, Portugal, Malta and every other country. Yeah, if only democracy worked outside of power plays and diplomatic and economic might... Because after all the number of votes is all that counts... >Instead of investing it in education, improved prductivity, Greece has been wasting it on an oversized army, extremely early retirement with cushy pensions for government employees, pointless olympic games, hagiographic articles in the NY Times and so on. I know. Those lazy southerners getting German money are the same kind of vermin that Jews were back in the day, right? Because what you wrote is word by word the same kind of BS propaganda repeated in German popular media, about some lazy, unproductive vermins ("PIIGS") wasting German tax-payers money. Here's some reality: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/05/16/greeks-work-harder-than-germans-who-knew/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/05/16... https://euobserver.com/social/124761 https://euobserver.com/social/124761
  - mafribe 11y ago
    Your incessant racism is tiring. In any case, if Greeks are so hard working, then you are actually agreeing with my point about Greece not investing the huge subsidies that they have recieved wisely into "improved prductivity". As the WaPo article you quote says: "Caveat: Long hours at the office don’t always equate to high productivity".
tjradcliffe 11y ago
I've never quite bought into this "predatory lending" idea. There is exactly one way for me to take a loan, and that is to actively sign papers saying, "Yes, give me money under these terms!" Terms that seem too good to be true, are. Borrowers know this. Nation-state borrowers certainly know this. So sure, easy money was available. No one forced anyone to take it. There were political considerations involved, obviously: parties that were willing to mortgage the future of their nation were more likely to get elected than parties that were willing to be fiscally responsible (to the extent that it would be astonishing if there even were parties willing to be fiscally responsible.) So leaders offered terms, but that meant nothing without borrowers being willing to take them. I don't see how, despite politics, that the lenders bear any blame for that because national governments are presumed to be mature stewards of the state, able to say "No" to enticing but ill-advised offers. To argue otherwise is to suggest that the Greeks et al are simply not ready or able to govern themselves, which I have difficulty accepting.
- harrumph 11y ago
  >To argue otherwise is to suggest that the Greeks et al are simply not ready or able to govern themselves, which I have difficulty accepting. And what happens when a new government is elected that is made up mainly of people who actively protested the loans and the terms the ECB made in the first place and for their trouble were gassed, beaten and jailed? People who turn off their brains and their capacity for moral/ethical calculation for no better reason that "someone signed a contract" are reductionist, simplistic and are capable of assent to monumental crimes.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >I don't see how, despite politics, that the lenders bear any blame for that because national governments are presumed to be mature stewards of the state, able to say "No" to enticing but ill-advised offers. Ever heards of "lackeys" in power? Countries ruled by people whose careers are sponsored by foreign powers? It's quite common in Latin America, Africa, Asia and Southern Europe, namely in all places not big enough to be colonialists themselves. Greece has been a protectorate and semi-colony (with some parts, like the Dodecanese, Ionian Islands and Cyprus being actual colonies to Italians, British, etc) ever since the country was established. From foreign powers sending a German king to rule the place in early 19th century, down to helping establish a military dictatorship back in the late sixties.

mafribe 11y ago

I'm sorry that's misleading. Germany has one vote on the ECB, the same number as Greece, Spain, Portugal, Malta and every other country. Greece was perfectly happy to get cheap money. Instead of investing it in education, improved prductivity, Greece has been wasting it on an oversized army, extremely early retirement with cushy pensions for government employees, pointless olympic games, hagiographic articles in the NY Times and so on.

coldtea 11y ago
>I'm sorry that's misleading. Germany has one vote on the ECB, the same number as Greece, Spain, Portugal, Malta and every other country. Yeah, if only democracy worked outside of power plays and diplomatic and economic might... Because after all the number of votes is all that counts... >Instead of investing it in education, improved prductivity, Greece has been wasting it on an oversized army, extremely early retirement with cushy pensions for government employees, pointless olympic games, hagiographic articles in the NY Times and so on. I know. Those lazy southerners getting German money are the same kind of vermin that Jews were back in the day, right? Because what you wrote is word by word the same kind of BS propaganda repeated in German popular media, about some lazy, unproductive vermins ("PIIGS") wasting German tax-payers money. Here's some reality: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/05/16/greeks-work-harder-than-germans-who-knew/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/05/16... https://euobserver.com/social/124761 https://euobserver.com/social/124761
- mafribe 11y ago
  Your incessant racism is tiring. In any case, if Greeks are so hard working, then you are actually agreeing with my point about Greece not investing the huge subsidies that they have recieved wisely into "improved prductivity". As the WaPo article you quote says: "Caveat: Long hours at the office don’t always equate to high productivity".

tjradcliffe 11y ago

I've never quite bought into this "predatory lending" idea. There is exactly one way for me to take a loan, and that is to actively sign papers saying, "Yes, give me money under these terms!" Terms that seem too good to be true, are. Borrowers know this. Nation-state borrowers certainly know this. So sure, easy money was available. No one forced anyone to take it. There were political considerations involved, obviously: parties that were willing to mortgage the future of their nation were more likely to get elected than parties that were willing to be fiscally responsible (to the extent that it would be astonishing if there even were parties willing to be fiscally responsible.) So leaders offered terms, but that meant nothing without borrowers being willing to take them. I don't see how, despite politics, that the lenders bear any blame for that because national governments are presumed to be mature stewards of the state, able to say "No" to enticing but ill-advised offers. To argue otherwise is to suggest that the Greeks et al are simply not ready or able to govern themselves, which I have difficulty accepting.

harrumph 11y ago
>To argue otherwise is to suggest that the Greeks et al are simply not ready or able to govern themselves, which I have difficulty accepting. And what happens when a new government is elected that is made up mainly of people who actively protested the loans and the terms the ECB made in the first place and for their trouble were gassed, beaten and jailed? People who turn off their brains and their capacity for moral/ethical calculation for no better reason that "someone signed a contract" are reductionist, simplistic and are capable of assent to monumental crimes.
coldtea 11y ago
>I don't see how, despite politics, that the lenders bear any blame for that because national governments are presumed to be mature stewards of the state, able to say "No" to enticing but ill-advised offers. Ever heards of "lackeys" in power? Countries ruled by people whose careers are sponsored by foreign powers? It's quite common in Latin America, Africa, Asia and Southern Europe, namely in all places not big enough to be colonialists themselves. Greece has been a protectorate and semi-colony (with some parts, like the Dodecanese, Ionian Islands and Cyprus being actual colonies to Italians, British, etc) ever since the country was established. From foreign powers sending a German king to rule the place in early 19th century, down to helping establish a military dictatorship back in the late sixties.