4 ms·

Sure - and plenty of MP3 players existed before the iPod, some of which, on paper, were better than the iPod (longer battery life, bigger capacity, more formats

by Aqueous 11y ago

Sure - and plenty of MP3 players existed before the iPod, some of which, on paper, were better than the iPod (longer battery life, bigger capacity, more formats, better platform compatibility). But it took somebody who cared about user experience and design to make it a popular consumer product.

fredkbloggs 11y ago
That's exactly my point: there IS no user experience. It's a piece of utility infrastructure: it sits there and does its job; you don't interact with it at all. You're paying for a Tesla nameplate on a device you will probably never even look at. Do you know who made the backflow preventer valve assembly that sits between your house/apartment and the street? Would you pay twice as much for one if it were sheathed in white plastic and had an Apple or Tesla logo?
- schiffern 11y ago
  >it sits there and does its job; you don't interact with it at all. This is more than can be said for the "half price" lead-acid batteries, which need to be periodically checked for corrosion and cleaned. Non-sealed batteries need to be topped off with distilled water annually. All PbA batteries (flooded and AGM!) require the hydrogen vent be checked for obstructions and maintained. That vent is an extra wall penetration for mice, insects, heat loss, etc. The entire battery bank also needs to be equalized every ~6 months, which may or may not be done automatically. Sounds like the Powerwall's "no interaction" model is already better than the competition. http://rimstar.org/renewnrg/off_grid_solar_battery_maintenance.htm http://rimstar.org/renewnrg/off_grid_solar_battery_maintenan...
  - fredkbloggs 11y ago
    AGM and gel type batteries are collectively known as valve-regulated lead-acid or VRLA types. The maintenance procedures you described are for flooded batteries (FLA) and are neither required nor even possible with VRLA batteries. You can save even more money by using FLA if you're willing to do the maintenance. If you're not, the direct comparison is with VRLA. VRLA is much cheaper than the Powerwall on an apples-to-apples basis. It's hard to point to a specific source describing maintenance procedures that don't exist. For example, a common manufacturer's manual may be found at http://rollsbattery.com/public/docs/user_manual/Rolls_Battery_Manual.pdf http://rollsbattery.com/public/docs/user_manual/Rolls_Batter.... Note the difference between FLA and AGM (VRLA) maintenance procedures. Specifically, there are none for the latter.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
      - fredkbloggs 11y ago
        So that's your pitch, no vent? All modern VRLA batteries are fully recombinant and that vent is only for safety (see for example https://www.gsbattery.com/content/vrla https://www.gsbattery.com/content/vrla). It requires no maintenance, inspection, or installation accommodation according to any manufacturer's recommendations I can find. And unfortunately, lithium-ion cells have vents, too, for the same reason: to limit the risk of explosion due to overcharging or cell defects. See among many other examples http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_ion_safety_concerns http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_ion_safet.... You can find discussions of venting in these cells in articles about Boeing's problems with the Dreamliner batteries. I can see no material distinction here. Even if I were to accept that the vent design in Li-ion cells is superior to that of VRLA designs, it wouldn't justify paying twice as much for the same capabilities.

by Aqueous 11y ago

fredkbloggs 11y ago

That's exactly my point: there IS no user experience. It's a piece of utility infrastructure: it sits there and does its job; you don't interact with it at all. You're paying for a Tesla nameplate on a device you will probably never even look at. Do you know who made the backflow preventer valve assembly that sits between your house/apartment and the street? Would you pay twice as much for one if it were sheathed in white plastic and had an Apple or Tesla logo?

schiffern 11y ago
>it sits there and does its job; you don't interact with it at all. This is more than can be said for the "half price" lead-acid batteries, which need to be periodically checked for corrosion and cleaned. Non-sealed batteries need to be topped off with distilled water annually. All PbA batteries (flooded and AGM!) require the hydrogen vent be checked for obstructions and maintained. That vent is an extra wall penetration for mice, insects, heat loss, etc. The entire battery bank also needs to be equalized every ~6 months, which may or may not be done automatically. Sounds like the Powerwall's "no interaction" model is already better than the competition. http://rimstar.org/renewnrg/off_grid_solar_battery_maintenance.htm http://rimstar.org/renewnrg/off_grid_solar_battery_maintenan...
- fredkbloggs 11y ago
  AGM and gel type batteries are collectively known as valve-regulated lead-acid or VRLA types. The maintenance procedures you described are for flooded batteries (FLA) and are neither required nor even possible with VRLA batteries. You can save even more money by using FLA if you're willing to do the maintenance. If you're not, the direct comparison is with VRLA. VRLA is much cheaper than the Powerwall on an apples-to-apples basis. It's hard to point to a specific source describing maintenance procedures that don't exist. For example, a common manufacturer's manual may be found at http://rollsbattery.com/public/docs/user_manual/Rolls_Battery_Manual.pdf http://rollsbattery.com/public/docs/user_manual/Rolls_Batter.... Note the difference between FLA and AGM (VRLA) maintenance procedures. Specifically, there are none for the latter.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
    - fredkbloggs 11y ago
      So that's your pitch, no vent? All modern VRLA batteries are fully recombinant and that vent is only for safety (see for example https://www.gsbattery.com/content/vrla https://www.gsbattery.com/content/vrla). It requires no maintenance, inspection, or installation accommodation according to any manufacturer's recommendations I can find. And unfortunately, lithium-ion cells have vents, too, for the same reason: to limit the risk of explosion due to overcharging or cell defects. See among many other examples http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_ion_safety_concerns http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_ion_safet.... You can find discussions of venting in these cells in articles about Boeing's problems with the Dreamliner batteries. I can see no material distinction here. Even if I were to accept that the vent design in Li-ion cells is superior to that of VRLA designs, it wouldn't justify paying twice as much for the same capabilities.