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"So defection from the electrical grid will remain well out of reach for most Americans, and even those who manage the feat will waste a lot of capacity thanks

by Aqueous 11y ago

"So defection from the electrical grid will remain well out of reach for most Americans, and even those who manage the feat will waste a lot of capacity thanks to solar panels and batteries that are rarely used to their full potential." Once again a news outlet (deliberately) fails to see the long-term strategy for the sake of a click-baity nay-saying headline. Just like the Tesla vehicle itself, which is still outside the reach of 99% of Americans, the point is to aim for the luxury market first and through scale and process optimization gradually lower the price so that it is within the reach of most Americans. The luxury market is why Tesla is now able to develop a mass market vehicle, why solar panels are reaching an inflection point where in many parts of the world it will no longer make financial sense not to have them, and why home batteries will eventually be in the reach of everybody.

fredkbloggs 11y ago
I love how the echo chamber keeps talking about the Powerwall as if it were the first battery system ever made. You can buy batteries for your home, today, at a retail price half that of the Powerwall. With equal or greater energy storage, power output, and lifetime. There's no need to wait for Li-ion to become "within reach". It's a needlessly expensive technology and product attempting to displace cheaper, more capable solutions that have been available for years. Their marketing sure is clever, though; they're already the only battery system that 98% of Americans have ever heard of! This is going to be a fascinating B-school case study in a year or two. It's one thing for Apple to convince people to pay a huge premium for its design, another entirely to convince people to pay twice as much for a noninteractive energy-storage device that sits in a basement or closet. I'm in awe. Luxury product indeed.
- Aqueous 11y ago
  Sure - and plenty of MP3 players existed before the iPod, some of which, on paper, were better than the iPod (longer battery life, bigger capacity, more formats, better platform compatibility). But it took somebody who cared about user experience and design to make it a popular consumer product.
  - fredkbloggs 11y ago
    That's exactly my point: there IS no user experience. It's a piece of utility infrastructure: it sits there and does its job; you don't interact with it at all. You're paying for a Tesla nameplate on a device you will probably never even look at. Do you know who made the backflow preventer valve assembly that sits between your house/apartment and the street? Would you pay twice as much for one if it were sheathed in white plastic and had an Apple or Tesla logo?
    - schiffern 11y ago
      >it sits there and does its job; you don't interact with it at all. This is more than can be said for the "half price" lead-acid batteries, which need to be periodically checked for corrosion and cleaned. Non-sealed batteries need to be topped off with distilled water annually. All PbA batteries (flooded and AGM!) require the hydrogen vent be checked for obstructions and maintained. That vent is an extra wall penetration for mice, insects, heat loss, etc. The entire battery bank also needs to be equalized every ~6 months, which may or may not be done automatically. Sounds like the Powerwall's "no interaction" model is already better than the competition. http://rimstar.org/renewnrg/off_grid_solar_battery_maintenance.htm http://rimstar.org/renewnrg/off_grid_solar_battery_maintenan...
      - fredkbloggs 11y ago
        AGM and gel type batteries are collectively known as valve-regulated lead-acid or VRLA types. The maintenance procedures you described are for flooded batteries (FLA) and are neither required nor even possible with VRLA batteries. You can save even more money by using FLA if you're willing to do the maintenance. If you're not, the direct comparison is with VRLA. VRLA is much cheaper than the Powerwall on an apples-to-apples basis. It's hard to point to a specific source describing maintenance procedures that don't exist. For example, a common manufacturer's manual may be found at http://rollsbattery.com/public/docs/user_manual/Rolls_Battery_Manual.pdf http://rollsbattery.com/public/docs/user_manual/Rolls_Batter.... Note the difference between FLA and AGM (VRLA) maintenance procedures. Specifically, there are none for the latter.

by Aqueous 11y ago

fredkbloggs 11y ago

I love how the echo chamber keeps talking about the Powerwall as if it were the first battery system ever made. You can buy batteries for your home, today, at a retail price half that of the Powerwall. With equal or greater energy storage, power output, and lifetime. There's no need to wait for Li-ion to become "within reach". It's a needlessly expensive technology and product attempting to displace cheaper, more capable solutions that have been available for years. Their marketing sure is clever, though; they're already the only battery system that 98% of Americans have ever heard of! This is going to be a fascinating B-school case study in a year or two. It's one thing for Apple to convince people to pay a huge premium for its design, another entirely to convince people to pay twice as much for a noninteractive energy-storage device that sits in a basement or closet. I'm in awe. Luxury product indeed.

Aqueous 11y ago
Sure - and plenty of MP3 players existed before the iPod, some of which, on paper, were better than the iPod (longer battery life, bigger capacity, more formats, better platform compatibility). But it took somebody who cared about user experience and design to make it a popular consumer product.
- fredkbloggs 11y ago
  That's exactly my point: there IS no user experience. It's a piece of utility infrastructure: it sits there and does its job; you don't interact with it at all. You're paying for a Tesla nameplate on a device you will probably never even look at. Do you know who made the backflow preventer valve assembly that sits between your house/apartment and the street? Would you pay twice as much for one if it were sheathed in white plastic and had an Apple or Tesla logo?
  - schiffern 11y ago
    >it sits there and does its job; you don't interact with it at all. This is more than can be said for the "half price" lead-acid batteries, which need to be periodically checked for corrosion and cleaned. Non-sealed batteries need to be topped off with distilled water annually. All PbA batteries (flooded and AGM!) require the hydrogen vent be checked for obstructions and maintained. That vent is an extra wall penetration for mice, insects, heat loss, etc. The entire battery bank also needs to be equalized every ~6 months, which may or may not be done automatically. Sounds like the Powerwall's "no interaction" model is already better than the competition. http://rimstar.org/renewnrg/off_grid_solar_battery_maintenance.htm http://rimstar.org/renewnrg/off_grid_solar_battery_maintenan...
    - fredkbloggs 11y ago
      AGM and gel type batteries are collectively known as valve-regulated lead-acid or VRLA types. The maintenance procedures you described are for flooded batteries (FLA) and are neither required nor even possible with VRLA batteries. You can save even more money by using FLA if you're willing to do the maintenance. If you're not, the direct comparison is with VRLA. VRLA is much cheaper than the Powerwall on an apples-to-apples basis. It's hard to point to a specific source describing maintenance procedures that don't exist. For example, a common manufacturer's manual may be found at http://rollsbattery.com/public/docs/user_manual/Rolls_Battery_Manual.pdf http://rollsbattery.com/public/docs/user_manual/Rolls_Batter.... Note the difference between FLA and AGM (VRLA) maintenance procedures. Specifically, there are none for the latter.