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> It's just an extension of the systemic AMD problem: they [very likely] have the best hardware but their Windows drivers are horrific and not only do they not

> It's just an extension of the systemic AMD problem: they [very likely] have the best hardware but their Windows drivers are horrific and not only do they not have developer support You are strongly misrepresenting the actual situation. AMD is painfully aware that their drivers lack compared to Nvidia but they disagree with the reason. AMD does not want to put nearly as many hacks into the drivers as Nvidia does. They went quite far (by making Mantle) to make the drivers leaner and more predictable. Nvidia traditionally detects misbehaving game code and patches it up with various degrees in the driver. > AMD didn't set out to do anything: once again they sabotaged themselves by not getting involved. AMD made the right step and backed the only thing that will evolve the situation from the status quo: Mantle and now Vulkan/DX12. Otherwise they would always end up playing this game of magical drivers that NVidia supports but nobody likes.

lsadam0 11y ago
> ...as many hacks into the drivers as Nvidia does. That sounds like an absolute nightmare to maintain.
- bhouston 11y ago
  It sucks actually because when I've written custom game engines, one doesn't know if one is using OpenGL properly because NVIDIA just makes things work even if you did a bad call. Then when you try to run it on other drivers that are more compliant, it all fails all over the place. The solution I guess is to try and find a highly compliant, picky driver, and develop using that, because it is easier to get it right at the beginning than to go back and try to fix things.
  - mrec 11y ago
    See also: HTML. I think there are debug wrapper for GL; too much overhead to run in production, but should tell you if you're Doing It Wrong (tm). Have you tried something like Regal?
zamalek 11y ago
> Mantle and now Vulkan/DX12 The issue here isn't that at all. The issue is a turn-key hair rendering solution. ~~Which AMD does not provide.~~ Correction: AMD provides TressFX, which had bad NVIDIA performance before NVIDIA stepped in and fixed it. ~~In fact I can't find any graphics code samples on their website, contrasted with the abundance on the NVIDIA website.~~ Correction: AMD does have samples.
- the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
  > The issue here isn't that at all. The issue is a turn-key hair rendering solution. That is incorrect. The issue here is hair rendering which AMD has a turn-key solution for it: TressFX.
  - zamalek 11y ago
    Right, I stand corrected. However, do keep in mind that NVIDIA had similar performance issues during the Tomb Raider launch - and instead of complaining about it NVIDIA stepped in and, as I've been saying, helped the game developer improve TessFx compatibility with their cards.
    - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
      Note that the source of TressFX is fully available in the DX samples. This cannot be said about whatever Nvidia does which cannot be disclosed to IHVs.
      - zamalek 11y ago
        > Note that the source of TressFX is fully available in the DX samples What does that have to do with my core point of AMD sitting back and complaining? > This cannot be said about whatever Nvidia does which cannot be disclosed to IHVs. NVIDIA provides restricted source to everything but TXAA, PhysX and beta libraries.[1] I'll re-iterate my point: AMD would have access to the code if they walked in the door. [1]: http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Editorial/NVIDIA-and-AMD-Fight-over-NVIDIA-GameWorks-Program-Devil-Details/NVIDIAs-Response http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Editorial/NVIDIA-and-AMD-Fight-...

lsadam0 11y ago

> ...as many hacks into the drivers as Nvidia does. That sounds like an absolute nightmare to maintain.

bhouston 11y ago
It sucks actually because when I've written custom game engines, one doesn't know if one is using OpenGL properly because NVIDIA just makes things work even if you did a bad call. Then when you try to run it on other drivers that are more compliant, it all fails all over the place. The solution I guess is to try and find a highly compliant, picky driver, and develop using that, because it is easier to get it right at the beginning than to go back and try to fix things.
- mrec 11y ago
  See also: HTML. I think there are debug wrapper for GL; too much overhead to run in production, but should tell you if you're Doing It Wrong (tm). Have you tried something like Regal?

zamalek 11y ago

> Mantle and now Vulkan/DX12 The issue here isn't that at all. The issue is a turn-key hair rendering solution. ~~Which AMD does not provide.~~ Correction: AMD provides TressFX, which had bad NVIDIA performance before NVIDIA stepped in and fixed it. ~~In fact I can't find any graphics code samples on their website, contrasted with the abundance on the NVIDIA website.~~ Correction: AMD does have samples.

the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
> The issue here isn't that at all. The issue is a turn-key hair rendering solution. That is incorrect. The issue here is hair rendering which AMD has a turn-key solution for it: TressFX.
- zamalek 11y ago
  Right, I stand corrected. However, do keep in mind that NVIDIA had similar performance issues during the Tomb Raider launch - and instead of complaining about it NVIDIA stepped in and, as I've been saying, helped the game developer improve TessFx compatibility with their cards.
  - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
    Note that the source of TressFX is fully available in the DX samples. This cannot be said about whatever Nvidia does which cannot be disclosed to IHVs.
    - zamalek 11y ago
      > Note that the source of TressFX is fully available in the DX samples What does that have to do with my core point of AMD sitting back and complaining? > This cannot be said about whatever Nvidia does which cannot be disclosed to IHVs. NVIDIA provides restricted source to everything but TXAA, PhysX and beta libraries.[1] I'll re-iterate my point: AMD would have access to the code if they walked in the door. [1]: http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Editorial/NVIDIA-and-AMD-Fight-over-NVIDIA-GameWorks-Program-Devil-Details/NVIDIAs-Response http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Editorial/NVIDIA-and-AMD-Fight-...