4 ms·

To cite my own experience, I pay around $30,000 a year for my instate J.D. program. My school-appointed mentor, who graduated in 2004, paid $4,000 a year. I se

by mhays 11y ago

To cite my own experience, I pay around $30,000 a year for my instate J.D. program. My school-appointed mentor, who graduated in 2004, paid $4,000 a year. I see this as unfair, not only in the sense that my generation has to take out extraordinary loans to access education, but also in the sense that I am forced to pay $100,000 just to participate in our justice system. And I am one of the lucky ones benefiting from a lowered in-state tuition. But I am not worried about me. I am worried about my friends who have accrued crippling debt in their quest to be a high school teacher, or some other valid, yet low paying, profession. I am afraid these people will never pay their debt off.

sjg007 11y ago
10 year income based and non-proft/govt based forgiveness.
danieltillett 11y ago
Well I am not sure if the USA needs anymore lawyers. If I were in charge I would make the tuition $500,000 pa and use the money to pay court appointed defence attorneys a decent wage and give them a reasonable workload. Fewer lawyers and more justice.
- itsybitsycoder 11y ago
  I'm not sure if having a justice system run entirely by children of the wealthy would result in more justice... because that's what you're going to get if tuition costs $2mil.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    I am glad to see at least some people bothered to respond to my proposal rather than blindly down voting. Actually if tuition was $2 million and the only decent paying law jobs were in the public defenders office all the good people would rack up big debts and then go and work there. We would end up with fewer lawyers over all and those that we did have would be working in the areas we need more lawyers.
- yequalsx 11y ago
  You have missed mhays' point. Focusing on what you perceive to be a problem of an abundance of lawyers detracts from the essence of the issue. Namely, "... in the sense that my generation has to take out extraordinary loans to access education..." Unless you think every field has an over supply, what is the point of your comment?
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    Of course I don't think every field has an oversupply of graduates (most recent graduates do though), but I do think tuition fees can be used by society to encourage people into areas we need rather than in areas we don't need more people. Discouraging more people from becoming lawyers and encouraging those that do to work in areas we need good lawyers is a double positive from my perspective.
- mhays 11y ago
  I understand all the negative feelings our society has towards lawyers, and I don't blame anyone for having them. But there are a lot of us who are entering the profession because we have a sincere desire to do good. I also think that if you talk to those interested in justice equity, especially public defenders, they will tell you that, while there may be too many lawyers in some places, there are many, many underprivileged communities that are underserved by our legal system.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    This is exactly my point. We have too many lawyers in areas we don't need them and not enough good ones in the area like public defenders that we do. We would have no problem getting good lawyers in the public defenders office if the job payed well and they were given the time to do their job well.
- Retra 11y ago
  Money is only a barrier if you aren't significantly wealthy. That's tautological enough that you should understand why your proposal doesn't help anything.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    Sure it would be a barrier - that is the whole point. We need to stop training so many lawyers and have the ones we do train be well paid in the positions where we need good lawyers (i.e. public defenders). My proposal solves both problems :)
    - Retra 11y ago
      High school costs doesn't imply high pay afterword. And I don't see how having fewer people with in depth knowledge of our legal system will make it harder to exploit and manipulate.
      - danieltillett 11y ago
        Fewer lawyers means less law suits. The manipulation of the legal system comes from the law being made so complex that only lawyers can understand it. If we had fewer lawyers we would have a simpler legal system.
        Retra 11y ago
        Simple isn't always better.
        danieltillett 11y ago
        This is true, but when you have legal system so complex that nobody even knows how many laws there are and everyone is breaking at least several every day you know there is a great need for simplification. I am in favour of few laws and more justice.
louisphilippe 11y ago
My school-appointed mentor, who graduated in 2004, paid $4,000 a year. I see this as unfair, not only in the sense that my generation has to take out extraordinary loans to access education, but also in the sense that I am forced to pay $100,000 just to participate in our justice system. Abraham Lincoln could become a lawyer simply by studying books from the library and passing the bar exam. No tuition was needed. Virtually all professions should have entry based on passing tests and paid apprenticeship. There is zero reason why entry needs to be mediated through expensive academic institutions staffed by professors who are generally not practitioners. If people want to go to law school as a luxury, that is fine, but it should not be required to participate in the justice system.
- joshuaheard 11y ago
  California does not require a JD to take the bar exam. Instead you can apprentice with an attorney or judge. As an alternative to taking out massive student loans, you can enter a part-time program and work full time to pay your tuition. That is what I did. I worked full time as a paralegal and went to school at night, then studied on weekends. I only took out one small loan to take time off to study for the bar exam and pay the associated costs.
- mhays 11y ago
  >There is zero reason why entry needs to be mediated through expensive academic institutions staffed by professors who are generally not practitioners. If people want to go to law school as a luxury, that is fine, but it should not be required to participate in the justice system. I would have agreed with you before I came to law school, but now I see why having intense legal training before being able to practice is required. Being an attorney requires a very specific type of thinking which is somewhat different from normal human reasoning. It is less about understanding what is wrong or right morally, and more about knowing who or what sources have power, what laws and rules are relevant, and which levers should be pulled to argue for your desired outcome. It is this "thinking like a lawyer" that law school purports to teach, maybe even more so than the actual law itself. Being an attorney is a huge responsibility, and I think the American Bar Association is right to set the bar high for prospective attorneys. My only gripe is that this bar seems to be not only ability and knowledge based, but also intensely financial as well.

by mhays 11y ago

sjg007 11y ago

10 year income based and non-proft/govt based forgiveness.

danieltillett 11y ago

Well I am not sure if the USA needs anymore lawyers. If I were in charge I would make the tuition $500,000 pa and use the money to pay court appointed defence attorneys a decent wage and give them a reasonable workload. Fewer lawyers and more justice.

itsybitsycoder 11y ago
I'm not sure if having a justice system run entirely by children of the wealthy would result in more justice... because that's what you're going to get if tuition costs $2mil.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  I am glad to see at least some people bothered to respond to my proposal rather than blindly down voting. Actually if tuition was $2 million and the only decent paying law jobs were in the public defenders office all the good people would rack up big debts and then go and work there. We would end up with fewer lawyers over all and those that we did have would be working in the areas we need more lawyers.
yequalsx 11y ago
You have missed mhays' point. Focusing on what you perceive to be a problem of an abundance of lawyers detracts from the essence of the issue. Namely, "... in the sense that my generation has to take out extraordinary loans to access education..." Unless you think every field has an over supply, what is the point of your comment?
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Of course I don't think every field has an oversupply of graduates (most recent graduates do though), but I do think tuition fees can be used by society to encourage people into areas we need rather than in areas we don't need more people. Discouraging more people from becoming lawyers and encouraging those that do to work in areas we need good lawyers is a double positive from my perspective.
mhays 11y ago
I understand all the negative feelings our society has towards lawyers, and I don't blame anyone for having them. But there are a lot of us who are entering the profession because we have a sincere desire to do good. I also think that if you talk to those interested in justice equity, especially public defenders, they will tell you that, while there may be too many lawyers in some places, there are many, many underprivileged communities that are underserved by our legal system.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  This is exactly my point. We have too many lawyers in areas we don't need them and not enough good ones in the area like public defenders that we do. We would have no problem getting good lawyers in the public defenders office if the job payed well and they were given the time to do their job well.
Retra 11y ago
Money is only a barrier if you aren't significantly wealthy. That's tautological enough that you should understand why your proposal doesn't help anything.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Sure it would be a barrier - that is the whole point. We need to stop training so many lawyers and have the ones we do train be well paid in the positions where we need good lawyers (i.e. public defenders). My proposal solves both problems :)
  - Retra 11y ago
    High school costs doesn't imply high pay afterword. And I don't see how having fewer people with in depth knowledge of our legal system will make it harder to exploit and manipulate.
    - danieltillett 11y ago
      Fewer lawyers means less law suits. The manipulation of the legal system comes from the law being made so complex that only lawyers can understand it. If we had fewer lawyers we would have a simpler legal system.
      - Retra 11y ago
        Simple isn't always better.
        danieltillett 11y ago
        This is true, but when you have legal system so complex that nobody even knows how many laws there are and everyone is breaking at least several every day you know there is a great need for simplification. I am in favour of few laws and more justice.

louisphilippe 11y ago

My school-appointed mentor, who graduated in 2004, paid $4,000 a year. I see this as unfair, not only in the sense that my generation has to take out extraordinary loans to access education, but also in the sense that I am forced to pay $100,000 just to participate in our justice system. Abraham Lincoln could become a lawyer simply by studying books from the library and passing the bar exam. No tuition was needed. Virtually all professions should have entry based on passing tests and paid apprenticeship. There is zero reason why entry needs to be mediated through expensive academic institutions staffed by professors who are generally not practitioners. If people want to go to law school as a luxury, that is fine, but it should not be required to participate in the justice system.

joshuaheard 11y ago
California does not require a JD to take the bar exam. Instead you can apprentice with an attorney or judge. As an alternative to taking out massive student loans, you can enter a part-time program and work full time to pay your tuition. That is what I did. I worked full time as a paralegal and went to school at night, then studied on weekends. I only took out one small loan to take time off to study for the bar exam and pay the associated costs.
mhays 11y ago
>There is zero reason why entry needs to be mediated through expensive academic institutions staffed by professors who are generally not practitioners. If people want to go to law school as a luxury, that is fine, but it should not be required to participate in the justice system. I would have agreed with you before I came to law school, but now I see why having intense legal training before being able to practice is required. Being an attorney requires a very specific type of thinking which is somewhat different from normal human reasoning. It is less about understanding what is wrong or right morally, and more about knowing who or what sources have power, what laws and rules are relevant, and which levers should be pulled to argue for your desired outcome. It is this "thinking like a lawyer" that law school purports to teach, maybe even more so than the actual law itself. Being an attorney is a huge responsibility, and I think the American Bar Association is right to set the bar high for prospective attorneys. My only gripe is that this bar seems to be not only ability and knowledge based, but also intensely financial as well.