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I've always thought coaches were far too conservative by never going for 2 and punting on almost every third down. There's actually a high school coach that sta

I've always thought coaches were far too conservative by never going for 2 and punting on almost every third down. There's actually a high school coach that starting using a more aggressive strategy. They never punt and always onside kick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGDaOJAYHfo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGDaOJAYHfo

ericcumbee 11y ago
Punting on 3rd down would be overly conservative since you get 4 downs. I've always thought the NFL was a little to conservative. But then at the college level I am a fan of Georgia Southern. The Triple Option coaches(Paul Johnson at Ga Tech, Jeff Monken at Army...both formerly of Georgia Southern) their philisophy is if with that type of offense, if you can't move the ball 2-3 yards a play either with a Fullback dive, a QB keeper/midline option, or pitching it to an A-Back. Then we have bigger problems than just turning the ball over.
- deleted 11y ago
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tghw 11y ago
The NYT has put a bot together that looks at the numbers and determines whether you should go for it or not. They have a good article on it here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/upshot/4th-down-when-to-go-for-it-and-why.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/upshot/4th-down-when-to-go...
gtaylor 11y ago
This definitely works at the highschool level, but becomes much more risky and nuanced in major collegiate BCS-level games, or especially in the NFL. On-sides kicks are incredibly difficult to recover when your opponent has been coached to be ready for them. We have a "hands team" for this specific reason. Making things even more difficult, there is game film available to pretty much all college/NFL coaching staffs within hours of a game's completion. If you do stuff like this, your opponents are going to be ready. I know we (Clemson) are always ready for Georgia Tech and Paul Johnson to pull stuff like this, because that's what he does. They're able to make bank on this against lesser opponents, but it doesn't always fly against an equally matched (or better) foe.
- ericcumbee 11y ago
  Are you talking about trying to convert on 4th and short or the offense in general? Because it works well enough against better opponents. (Ask Florida who lost to a "lesser" team with the option, or Georgia Tech who you would think would be ready to for the option got taken to the wire by Georgia Southern). If you are fan of the nuts and bolts of offenses then the 1990s Paul Johnson Option playbook is really interesting. Especially the section about the quarterback and the attributes of a successful option quarterback. http://fastandfuriousfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/collegeoffense2/1990%20GSU%20Paul%20Johnson%20Option.pdf http://fastandfuriousfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/college...
  - gtaylor 11y ago
    GT and Paul Johnson still punts and goes for the PAT pretty often. It's very situational, though he does go for it on 4th far more than most BCS-level teams. He's not doing what the aforementioned highschool coach does, though. Also, I'll take the bait and point out that Florida has been pretty bad for a number of years now. They do get ranked highly every year because of their success the last decade+, but they haven't been a real contender for some time now.
    - ericcumbee 11y ago
      Yeah 4th down is where Paul Johnson likes to roll the dice. Although I'm not sure he would consider it rolling the dice. being able to pick up 2-3 yards a run on the Fullback dive is the cornerstone of the offense. Establishing the dive is the first stage of the flexbone spread option offense. As to Florida they were still a Power 5 sec school with SEC level talent. They also had one of the better Defenses in FBS that year, and were still made to look foolish against a FCS school that quite honestly was not that good that year(24 Scholarship players out for that game due to injuries). To me that is the prime example of why that offense is so good.
      - gtaylor 11y ago
        It's great when it works, but without the dive you are screwed. In the present era, it's a gimmicky offense that fails spectacularly if your opponent is talented and prepared. You need only look at Paul Johnson's bowl record at GT to see what happens when a more evenly matched team is prepared for him. He victimizes schools that only have a week (or less) to gameplan for him. He only got his second bowl win in a good while last year, after many failures. Again with UF, I am assuming you are talking about 2013 when they lost to GA Southern. The problem is, they lost to a lot of teams that year (4-8). They were a fundamentally bad team in the midst of a five game losing streak when they lost to GA Southern (not to take away from what the Eagles accomplished). That GA Southern loss wasn't because of their offensive scheme. It was more about a team feeling that they failed fantastically, that some of their coaches were going to be removed, and that it's going to be seen as a lost season. The only two offensively strong teams they played wore them out (Missou 36-17 and FSU 37-7). Throw in a loss to an awful Miami (21-16) and an even worse Vandy (34-17!?!?).
deleted 11y ago
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ericcumbee 11y ago

Punting on 3rd down would be overly conservative since you get 4 downs. I've always thought the NFL was a little to conservative. But then at the college level I am a fan of Georgia Southern. The Triple Option coaches(Paul Johnson at Ga Tech, Jeff Monken at Army...both formerly of Georgia Southern) their philisophy is if with that type of offense, if you can't move the ball 2-3 yards a play either with a Fullback dive, a QB keeper/midline option, or pitching it to an A-Back. Then we have bigger problems than just turning the ball over.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

tghw 11y ago

The NYT has put a bot together that looks at the numbers and determines whether you should go for it or not. They have a good article on it here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/upshot/4th-down-when-to-go-for-it-and-why.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/upshot/4th-down-when-to-go...

gtaylor 11y ago

This definitely works at the highschool level, but becomes much more risky and nuanced in major collegiate BCS-level games, or especially in the NFL. On-sides kicks are incredibly difficult to recover when your opponent has been coached to be ready for them. We have a "hands team" for this specific reason. Making things even more difficult, there is game film available to pretty much all college/NFL coaching staffs within hours of a game's completion. If you do stuff like this, your opponents are going to be ready. I know we (Clemson) are always ready for Georgia Tech and Paul Johnson to pull stuff like this, because that's what he does. They're able to make bank on this against lesser opponents, but it doesn't always fly against an equally matched (or better) foe.

ericcumbee 11y ago
Are you talking about trying to convert on 4th and short or the offense in general? Because it works well enough against better opponents. (Ask Florida who lost to a "lesser" team with the option, or Georgia Tech who you would think would be ready to for the option got taken to the wire by Georgia Southern). If you are fan of the nuts and bolts of offenses then the 1990s Paul Johnson Option playbook is really interesting. Especially the section about the quarterback and the attributes of a successful option quarterback. http://fastandfuriousfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/collegeoffense2/1990%20GSU%20Paul%20Johnson%20Option.pdf http://fastandfuriousfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/college...
- gtaylor 11y ago
  GT and Paul Johnson still punts and goes for the PAT pretty often. It's very situational, though he does go for it on 4th far more than most BCS-level teams. He's not doing what the aforementioned highschool coach does, though. Also, I'll take the bait and point out that Florida has been pretty bad for a number of years now. They do get ranked highly every year because of their success the last decade+, but they haven't been a real contender for some time now.
  - ericcumbee 11y ago
    Yeah 4th down is where Paul Johnson likes to roll the dice. Although I'm not sure he would consider it rolling the dice. being able to pick up 2-3 yards a run on the Fullback dive is the cornerstone of the offense. Establishing the dive is the first stage of the flexbone spread option offense. As to Florida they were still a Power 5 sec school with SEC level talent. They also had one of the better Defenses in FBS that year, and were still made to look foolish against a FCS school that quite honestly was not that good that year(24 Scholarship players out for that game due to injuries). To me that is the prime example of why that offense is so good.
    - gtaylor 11y ago
      It's great when it works, but without the dive you are screwed. In the present era, it's a gimmicky offense that fails spectacularly if your opponent is talented and prepared. You need only look at Paul Johnson's bowl record at GT to see what happens when a more evenly matched team is prepared for him. He victimizes schools that only have a week (or less) to gameplan for him. He only got his second bowl win in a good while last year, after many failures. Again with UF, I am assuming you are talking about 2013 when they lost to GA Southern. The problem is, they lost to a lot of teams that year (4-8). They were a fundamentally bad team in the midst of a five game losing streak when they lost to GA Southern (not to take away from what the Eagles accomplished). That GA Southern loss wasn't because of their offensive scheme. It was more about a team feeling that they failed fantastically, that some of their coaches were going to be removed, and that it's going to be seen as a lost season. The only two offensively strong teams they played wore them out (Missou 36-17 and FSU 37-7). Throw in a loss to an awful Miami (21-16) and an even worse Vandy (34-17!?!?).

deleted 11y ago

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