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> the reputation cost is likely to affect WhatsApp's ability to hire and retain developers in the future Have Oracle's attacks on open source software [1] affe

by panarky 11y ago

> the reputation cost is likely to affect WhatsApp's ability to hire and retain developers in the future Have Oracle's attacks on open source software [1] affected their ability to hire and retain talent? Is there any example where bad behavior by a large organization [2, 3] meaningfully affected its ability to buy the talent it needs? [1] http://www.wired.com/2010/08/oracle-attacks-opensource/ http://www.wired.com/2010/08/oracle-attacks-opensource/ [2] https://www.nsa.gov/careers/FAQs/index.shtml#isNSA_5 https://www.nsa.gov/careers/FAQs/index.shtml#isNSA_5 [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone_patent_wars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone_patent_wars

rando3826 11y ago
The answer to both questions is yes. The talent pool and cost of developer talent is significantly impacted by a company's reputation, including it's activities in the free/open source arena. Also, your question include a false presumption in "buy the talent it needs", every software company seeks to optimize talent/cost, it doesn't simply have a binary "needed quota filled." Perhaps it doesn't affect it enough yet for them to rationally stop their nasty behaviour, and that is a better question.
hippich 11y ago
Speaking of Oracle - I bet they have no problem to hire people. But reputation affects what kind of developers you get. I believe this might affect company's destiny.
awkward 11y ago
For one, Microsoft. And would you argue that the NSA has seen no meaningful reduction in access to talent?
- brandmeyer 11y ago
  How can you make a meaningful argument either way without access to NSA's actual hiring data?
  - CodeWriter23 11y ago
    NPR seems to have made that argument http://www.npr.org/2015/03/31/395829446/after-snowden-the-nsa-faces-recruitment-challenge http://www.npr.org/2015/03/31/395829446/after-snowden-the-ns...
    - rfrey 11y ago
      That article says the NSA is a bit worried about recruitment problems, but hasn't seen any yet. It also says that increasing salaries at SV companies is a far greater challenge in recruiting than reputation.
      - CodeWriter23 11y ago
        That's because they know the backbone of their organization is training people NOT to talk about what they are actually doing, nor the implications of those actions.
  - ajkjk 11y ago
    Hm? It's easy to make a meaningful argument without raw data. You just extrapolate from what you know. I know that I have had the opportunity to apply to work at the NSA. When I was looking for job opportunities after college I perused lists of government jobs, including positions at the NSA. I know that today, I would not apply to work there. I'm one person, but I know many engineers of a similar mindset and read about many more, so I assume it's a trend. I definitely don't know what rate of potential applicants conform to this mindset, but I know some do (me, the people I know like me, and voices I've heard on the internet). Therefore, I can meaningfully argue that they would have a harder time hiring. Of course I might be wrong but that's what you get when you operate with incomplete data.
    - qbrass 11y ago
      There's a smaller pool of candidates, but the ones that remain are more likely to be okay with what the NSA does.
    - 11y ago
sockgrant 11y ago
Absolutely. I have categorically declined all recruitment e-mails from Comcast. There's no way I would work for them unless I was starving. I hope the rest of you feel the same...
rbanffy 11y ago
Oracle can hire the best developers money can buy. Others, with a better reputation will hire the best developers money can't buy. That makes a huge difference.
- rhizome 11y ago
  I was recently looking at finance job ads for programmers and the one thing that set the ads apart from 100% of the ads from the companies we all read about here was that they didn't say "competitive salary." They said, "extremely high salary."
  - rbanffy 11y ago
    I noticed that too. I won't say I'm oblivious to the possibility of a much earlier retirement, but leaving my current job, one I really love, will take more than just that.
    - rhizome 11y ago
      Sure, but you could do finance for a short time and then go back to riskier startups, which is the thing I was trying to illustrate with my comment: finance companies appear to be much, much more confident in their viability, or at least are willing to demonstrate their confidence in having a future.
- spb 11y ago
  As exemplified in Jurassic Park: https://twitter.com/stuartpb/status/474494275212685312 https://twitter.com/stuartpb/status/474494275212685312 (long-form: https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/2j7jo4/rather_than_having_a_felt_tip_this_highlighter_is/cl9aplw https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/2j7jo4/r...)

by panarky 11y ago

rando3826 11y ago

The answer to both questions is yes. The talent pool and cost of developer talent is significantly impacted by a company's reputation, including it's activities in the free/open source arena. Also, your question include a false presumption in "buy the talent it needs", every software company seeks to optimize talent/cost, it doesn't simply have a binary "needed quota filled." Perhaps it doesn't affect it enough yet for them to rationally stop their nasty behaviour, and that is a better question.

hippich 11y ago

Speaking of Oracle - I bet they have no problem to hire people. But reputation affects what kind of developers you get. I believe this might affect company's destiny.

awkward 11y ago

For one, Microsoft. And would you argue that the NSA has seen no meaningful reduction in access to talent?

brandmeyer 11y ago
How can you make a meaningful argument either way without access to NSA's actual hiring data?
- CodeWriter23 11y ago
  NPR seems to have made that argument http://www.npr.org/2015/03/31/395829446/after-snowden-the-nsa-faces-recruitment-challenge http://www.npr.org/2015/03/31/395829446/after-snowden-the-ns...
  - rfrey 11y ago
    That article says the NSA is a bit worried about recruitment problems, but hasn't seen any yet. It also says that increasing salaries at SV companies is a far greater challenge in recruiting than reputation.
    - CodeWriter23 11y ago
      That's because they know the backbone of their organization is training people NOT to talk about what they are actually doing, nor the implications of those actions.
- ajkjk 11y ago
  Hm? It's easy to make a meaningful argument without raw data. You just extrapolate from what you know. I know that I have had the opportunity to apply to work at the NSA. When I was looking for job opportunities after college I perused lists of government jobs, including positions at the NSA. I know that today, I would not apply to work there. I'm one person, but I know many engineers of a similar mindset and read about many more, so I assume it's a trend. I definitely don't know what rate of potential applicants conform to this mindset, but I know some do (me, the people I know like me, and voices I've heard on the internet). Therefore, I can meaningfully argue that they would have a harder time hiring. Of course I might be wrong but that's what you get when you operate with incomplete data.
  - qbrass 11y ago
    There's a smaller pool of candidates, but the ones that remain are more likely to be okay with what the NSA does.
  - 11y ago

sockgrant 11y ago

Absolutely. I have categorically declined all recruitment e-mails from Comcast. There's no way I would work for them unless I was starving. I hope the rest of you feel the same...

rbanffy 11y ago

Oracle can hire the best developers money can buy. Others, with a better reputation will hire the best developers money can't buy. That makes a huge difference.

rhizome 11y ago
I was recently looking at finance job ads for programmers and the one thing that set the ads apart from 100% of the ads from the companies we all read about here was that they didn't say "competitive salary." They said, "extremely high salary."
- rbanffy 11y ago
  I noticed that too. I won't say I'm oblivious to the possibility of a much earlier retirement, but leaving my current job, one I really love, will take more than just that.
  - rhizome 11y ago
    Sure, but you could do finance for a short time and then go back to riskier startups, which is the thing I was trying to illustrate with my comment: finance companies appear to be much, much more confident in their viability, or at least are willing to demonstrate their confidence in having a future.
spb 11y ago
As exemplified in Jurassic Park: https://twitter.com/stuartpb/status/474494275212685312 https://twitter.com/stuartpb/status/474494275212685312 (long-form: https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/2j7jo4/rather_than_having_a_felt_tip_this_highlighter_is/cl9aplw https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/2j7jo4/r...)