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> These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betr

> These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. That logic should scare the living hell out of people.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
dimino 11y ago
Why? I myself am not over the moon about what Snowden did, though I recognize the necessity for it, and don't hold any personal grudge against him for it. I just don't trust people to accurately asses whether or not something is "leak worthy", and I don't want to create a safe path for folks just because they thought what they were leaking was important for the world to know. It ruins the concept of holding government secrets, something I think benefits the US and other governments more than it harms them and the people they serve. I think it should be a huge risk, and carry dire consequences, in general, when you release classified information. In this specific case, perhaps the fact that the US courts, congress, and the US people have all collectively been appalled at what the US government has been doing should exonerate Snowden, but only in this specific case. I would not like any kind of precedent to be set, for the aforementioned reason. I hope Obama pardons him in his last days in office, or offers him a deal where he is allowed back in the US without serving any jail time. What's wrong with my logic?
- atom-morgan 11y ago
  Because Snowden told the public what they're own government is doing - things they shouldn't be doing. Operations that people would have considered Orwellian a decade or two ago. Things they've blatantly lied about [1]. Another user in this thread, jordigh, covers why this has been important in the past. [1] http://rare.us/story/nsa-chief-i-didnt-lie-to-congress-about-spying-on-millions-of-americans-i-just-forgot-about-it/ http://rare.us/story/nsa-chief-i-didnt-lie-to-congress-about...
  - dimino 11y ago
    You're not really addressing what I wrote -- specifically, the general precedent of allowing state secrets to be leaked without severe punishment seems harmful to any nation state. It makes sense to me that the default reaction to the release of state secrets is that of disapproval. From there, we can of course move further away from acceptance or closer to it depending on the specific scenario, but most folks aren't taking a close look at Snowden -- I'd even argue that they probably don't need to. What matters here is the info he released, not really Snowden specifically.
    - jordigh 11y ago
      > specifically, the general precedent of allowing state secrets to be leaked without severe punishment seems harmful to any nation state. And is it also harmful to the citizens of that nation state? What are our rulers doing that they don't want us to know about? Why should we not know everything that they are doing?
      - dimino 11y ago
        There's no way to notify your population of an action without also notifying your enemies of that action. No argument exists, to my knowledge, that a nation-state can be successful without hiding some information from other nation-states, and therefore from its people, given my first sentence. It's one reason we elect representatives, in fact.
        jordigh 11y ago
        How about the nation state stops having secrets that are making enemies for itself?
        dimino 11y ago
        Considering there has never been a time in human history where a nation state has not had any opposition from other nation states, I suspect your suggestion is literally impossible.
- felipeerias 11y ago
  I don't think anybody here is advocating for thoughtlessly dumping all state secrets in the open. The thing is, when given the power to eavesdrop into anyone's life without consequences, it takes a rather uncommon kind of person to do what Snowden did in order to make the public aware of what is going on. Because the most common behaviour when receiving that power would be to exploit and abuse it, regardless of whether we are talking about an individual, an institution, or a whole government. So I am not worried about Snowden, I'm worried about the thousands of his ex-colleagues who are still sitting on their desks every day.
  - jordigh 11y ago
    > I don't think anybody here is advocating for thoughtlessly dumping all state secrets in the open. I am. Why should a state have secrets? Rulers ought to be in power under the consent of the ruled. If the ruled don't even know what the rulers are doing, how can we be giving them consent for something we don't know about?
    - philwelch 11y ago
      Because the state can't function without keeping some secrets, particularly in times of crisis or peril.
      - jordigh 11y ago
        Times of crisis and peril is pretty much the entire history of the US. The US has been in constant war since its creation. This is not a good reason to be having secrets.
        philwelch 11y ago
        A "zero secrets policy" is still not tenable. There are enough legitimate government uses for secrets. For example: * Police are investigating a crime and have not made all details of the crime publicly known. Under questioning, a suspect independently corroborates these details, which he would not have known unless he was the perpetrator. The prosecution now has a stronger case. * Three high-ranking members of ISIS are in fact CIA informants. They meet their CIA contact biweekly in a falafel shop in Mosul. The identities of the informants, their contact, and the falafel shop are all state secrets. * A defense contractor is building a secret weapon that is decades ahead of competing powers. The design and specifications of this weapon are state secrets. * The government maintains a health insurance system for the disabled, poor, and elderly. * The military is performing operations somewhere in the world. Their exact order of battle and battle plan are secret. * The military is planning an amphibious assault on Beachhead B. Using a ruse, they convince the enemy that they are instead landing at Beachhead A. There are reasonable and good-intentioned debates to be had about state secrets, but to say there is never a legitimate purpose for them is the practical equivalent of anarchism.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  The possible precedent of not punishing leakers is far preferable to the actual precedent of giving the government a way to shield all of its wrongdoings.
  - dimino 11y ago
    I understand this sentiment, but I doubt you'd continue to hold it in the event of a leak that was much less beneficial for you in particular. Consider for a moment the fictional scenario that all US tax documents were leaked, or perhaps only the tax documents of folks whose names started with Warren B. We might (in this fictional scenario) find out about some very significant tax evasion on the part of Warren Buffet (just a hypothetical example, almost certainly not true), but how might Warren Beaufort feel? To provide another (completely fictional) example, what about if the medical information of all federal US employees gets leaked. The US public is shocked to discover the huge misappropriations of funds towards unnecessary procedures for US congressmen/women, but at the same time Joe Normal, who works for a middle school, loses his job because it's revealed he has AIDS and the parents petition his removal from the classroom. I don't want to give these folks who might have access to this data any hope of exoneration or leniency if they use their privileged position to reveal secrets.
    - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
      >who works for a middle school, loses his job because it's revealed he has AIDS and the parents petition his removal from the classroom. Once again, blaming the leaker is blaming the wrong individual here. There is already a cost to society of people not seeking treatment for mental health issues on the possibility the info might be leaked, not because the leak itself is a feared occurrence (in reality it is rare) but because of how irrational society reacts (especially when mental disorders are treated as moral failings).
      - dimino 11y ago
        If I send my kid to visit his dad, knowing full well his dad is going to abuse him, am I at fault for sending him anyway, or are you exclusively arguing that his dad would be at fault, and I would carry zero blame?
shit_parade2 11y ago
The commenter lives in DC, of course people there revile snowden, his exposure briefly threatened their daily lunch at the government trough.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

dimino 11y ago

Why? I myself am not over the moon about what Snowden did, though I recognize the necessity for it, and don't hold any personal grudge against him for it. I just don't trust people to accurately asses whether or not something is "leak worthy", and I don't want to create a safe path for folks just because they thought what they were leaking was important for the world to know. It ruins the concept of holding government secrets, something I think benefits the US and other governments more than it harms them and the people they serve. I think it should be a huge risk, and carry dire consequences, in general, when you release classified information. In this specific case, perhaps the fact that the US courts, congress, and the US people have all collectively been appalled at what the US government has been doing should exonerate Snowden, but only in this specific case. I would not like any kind of precedent to be set, for the aforementioned reason. I hope Obama pardons him in his last days in office, or offers him a deal where he is allowed back in the US without serving any jail time. What's wrong with my logic?

atom-morgan 11y ago
Because Snowden told the public what they're own government is doing - things they shouldn't be doing. Operations that people would have considered Orwellian a decade or two ago. Things they've blatantly lied about [1]. Another user in this thread, jordigh, covers why this has been important in the past. [1] http://rare.us/story/nsa-chief-i-didnt-lie-to-congress-about-spying-on-millions-of-americans-i-just-forgot-about-it/ http://rare.us/story/nsa-chief-i-didnt-lie-to-congress-about...
- dimino 11y ago
  You're not really addressing what I wrote -- specifically, the general precedent of allowing state secrets to be leaked without severe punishment seems harmful to any nation state. It makes sense to me that the default reaction to the release of state secrets is that of disapproval. From there, we can of course move further away from acceptance or closer to it depending on the specific scenario, but most folks aren't taking a close look at Snowden -- I'd even argue that they probably don't need to. What matters here is the info he released, not really Snowden specifically.
  - jordigh 11y ago
    > specifically, the general precedent of allowing state secrets to be leaked without severe punishment seems harmful to any nation state. And is it also harmful to the citizens of that nation state? What are our rulers doing that they don't want us to know about? Why should we not know everything that they are doing?
    - dimino 11y ago
      There's no way to notify your population of an action without also notifying your enemies of that action. No argument exists, to my knowledge, that a nation-state can be successful without hiding some information from other nation-states, and therefore from its people, given my first sentence. It's one reason we elect representatives, in fact.
      - jordigh 11y ago
        How about the nation state stops having secrets that are making enemies for itself?
        dimino 11y ago
        Considering there has never been a time in human history where a nation state has not had any opposition from other nation states, I suspect your suggestion is literally impossible.
felipeerias 11y ago
I don't think anybody here is advocating for thoughtlessly dumping all state secrets in the open. The thing is, when given the power to eavesdrop into anyone's life without consequences, it takes a rather uncommon kind of person to do what Snowden did in order to make the public aware of what is going on. Because the most common behaviour when receiving that power would be to exploit and abuse it, regardless of whether we are talking about an individual, an institution, or a whole government. So I am not worried about Snowden, I'm worried about the thousands of his ex-colleagues who are still sitting on their desks every day.
- jordigh 11y ago
  > I don't think anybody here is advocating for thoughtlessly dumping all state secrets in the open. I am. Why should a state have secrets? Rulers ought to be in power under the consent of the ruled. If the ruled don't even know what the rulers are doing, how can we be giving them consent for something we don't know about?
  - philwelch 11y ago
    Because the state can't function without keeping some secrets, particularly in times of crisis or peril.
    - jordigh 11y ago
      Times of crisis and peril is pretty much the entire history of the US. The US has been in constant war since its creation. This is not a good reason to be having secrets.
      - philwelch 11y ago
        A "zero secrets policy" is still not tenable. There are enough legitimate government uses for secrets. For example: * Police are investigating a crime and have not made all details of the crime publicly known. Under questioning, a suspect independently corroborates these details, which he would not have known unless he was the perpetrator. The prosecution now has a stronger case. * Three high-ranking members of ISIS are in fact CIA informants. They meet their CIA contact biweekly in a falafel shop in Mosul. The identities of the informants, their contact, and the falafel shop are all state secrets. * A defense contractor is building a secret weapon that is decades ahead of competing powers. The design and specifications of this weapon are state secrets. * The government maintains a health insurance system for the disabled, poor, and elderly. * The military is performing operations somewhere in the world. Their exact order of battle and battle plan are secret. * The military is planning an amphibious assault on Beachhead B. Using a ruse, they convince the enemy that they are instead landing at Beachhead A. There are reasonable and good-intentioned debates to be had about state secrets, but to say there is never a legitimate purpose for them is the practical equivalent of anarchism.
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
The possible precedent of not punishing leakers is far preferable to the actual precedent of giving the government a way to shield all of its wrongdoings.
- dimino 11y ago
  I understand this sentiment, but I doubt you'd continue to hold it in the event of a leak that was much less beneficial for you in particular. Consider for a moment the fictional scenario that all US tax documents were leaked, or perhaps only the tax documents of folks whose names started with Warren B. We might (in this fictional scenario) find out about some very significant tax evasion on the part of Warren Buffet (just a hypothetical example, almost certainly not true), but how might Warren Beaufort feel? To provide another (completely fictional) example, what about if the medical information of all federal US employees gets leaked. The US public is shocked to discover the huge misappropriations of funds towards unnecessary procedures for US congressmen/women, but at the same time Joe Normal, who works for a middle school, loses his job because it's revealed he has AIDS and the parents petition his removal from the classroom. I don't want to give these folks who might have access to this data any hope of exoneration or leniency if they use their privileged position to reveal secrets.
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    >who works for a middle school, loses his job because it's revealed he has AIDS and the parents petition his removal from the classroom. Once again, blaming the leaker is blaming the wrong individual here. There is already a cost to society of people not seeking treatment for mental health issues on the possibility the info might be leaked, not because the leak itself is a feared occurrence (in reality it is rare) but because of how irrational society reacts (especially when mental disorders are treated as moral failings).
    - dimino 11y ago
      If I send my kid to visit his dad, knowing full well his dad is going to abuse him, am I at fault for sending him anyway, or are you exclusively arguing that his dad would be at fault, and I would carry zero blame?

shit_parade2 11y ago

The commenter lives in DC, of course people there revile snowden, his exposure briefly threatened their daily lunch at the government trough.