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Almost everyone I talk to in person thinks Snowden is a criminal. These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snow

by dimino 11y ago

Almost everyone I talk to in person thinks Snowden is a criminal. These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. I think HN is much more pro-Snowden than the general population is, but I think the general population doesn't deny the value of exposing what the US government did. I live in DC however, so there's certainly a pro-government feeling in this down, possibly more so than many other places in the US. Edit: To add some support for my anecdotes, here's a somewhat recent poll I found from April 21st citing 64% of people hold a negative opinion of Snowden [0]. [0] - http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-snowden-unpopular-at-home-a-hero-abroad-poll-finds http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-snowde...

toxican 11y ago
I guess this is kind of where I'm at with him. Although I don't really think he's a "bad guy". What he did was treason and it was "wrong", but I think in this case the ends justify the means. What he exposed was far worse than how he did it.
- diyorgasms 11y ago
  You do realize that the crime of treason is codified in the United States Constitution, and that what Snowden did in no way meets the criteria enumerated there. Careful throwing the word "treason" around like that, it can make you appear ignorant.
  - eatbuckyballs 11y ago
    It's likely he'll see the charges of "Aiding the Enemy", "Illegal disclosure of Classified Information", and "Unauthorized removal and retention of Classified information". That said, Treason isn't as hard to apply as people are making it out to be. “If you think that one, Al Qaeda and similar groups are the enemy for purposes of treason; two, his actions assisted them in operations against the U.S.; and three, that was his intention,” Harrison said, “then the argument that it was treason is pretty good.” - John Harrison UVA LAW specializing in constitutional law and history.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  People are celebrated for treason. Like George Washington.
atom-morgan 11y ago
> These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. That logic should scare the living hell out of people.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- dimino 11y ago
  Why? I myself am not over the moon about what Snowden did, though I recognize the necessity for it, and don't hold any personal grudge against him for it. I just don't trust people to accurately asses whether or not something is "leak worthy", and I don't want to create a safe path for folks just because they thought what they were leaking was important for the world to know. It ruins the concept of holding government secrets, something I think benefits the US and other governments more than it harms them and the people they serve. I think it should be a huge risk, and carry dire consequences, in general, when you release classified information. In this specific case, perhaps the fact that the US courts, congress, and the US people have all collectively been appalled at what the US government has been doing should exonerate Snowden, but only in this specific case. I would not like any kind of precedent to be set, for the aforementioned reason. I hope Obama pardons him in his last days in office, or offers him a deal where he is allowed back in the US without serving any jail time. What's wrong with my logic?
  - atom-morgan 11y ago
    Because Snowden told the public what they're own government is doing - things they shouldn't be doing. Operations that people would have considered Orwellian a decade or two ago. Things they've blatantly lied about [1]. Another user in this thread, jordigh, covers why this has been important in the past. [1] http://rare.us/story/nsa-chief-i-didnt-lie-to-congress-about-spying-on-millions-of-americans-i-just-forgot-about-it/ http://rare.us/story/nsa-chief-i-didnt-lie-to-congress-about...
    - 11y ago
deciplex 11y ago
Honestly, the fact that it's only 64% raises my opinion of Americans slightly. The barrage of propaganda you have to put up with there is truly remarkable, and especially considering the rivers of bullshit that streamed out of every single major media outlet in the wake of this, the fact the over one in three Americans still thinks he's an alright guy, with one in ten considering him a hero, speaks volumes for their resistance to it. Nice work, America.
derf_ 11y ago
Would this be the same population polled in 2010 when 41% of them could not name the vice president of the United States in an open-ended (not multiple choice) question? [0] Or last September when 64% of them could not name the three branches of government? [1] (35% could not name a single one) My favorite poll is this one: http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/03/16/americans-privacy-strategies-post-snowden/ http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/03/16/americans-privacy-stra... Buried near the bottom is, "60% believe it is acceptable to monitor the communications of American leaders." Raise your hand if you think it's good for a healthy democracy for the executive branch to monitor the private communications of congresspeople, senators, and federal judges? [0] http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey-who-knows-what-about-religion/#Nonreligious http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-s... [1] http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/americans-know-surprisingly-little-about-their-government-survey-finds/ http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/americans-know-su...
- spacehome 11y ago
  Eh, to be fair, the vice president has very little power and doesn't seem to be of any great consequence.
- dimino 11y ago
  Hah, I don't think anyone would disagree with you if your thesis here is "most people are generally uninformed". That being said, technically speaking yes, it probably was a different set of people polled, just considering how the nature of polling works! What you're not understanding though is that people actually seem to separate the content of the leak with the act of the leak. All it takes is a quick Google of "NSA spying program polling" to see polls affirming that hypothesis (folks disapprove of Snowden, but also heavily disapprove of the NSA spying program). Snowden himself has been known to beg folks during his interviews to stop caring about him or what he did, and focus on the content of the information he released, and I'd agree. So what if folks don't like Snowden?
ionised 11y ago
I get the impression that the general population doesn't actually fully understand what the government has done.
- Veratyr 11y ago
  Watching through the John Oliver episode with Snowden [1], that's pretty clear. To sum up the interviews with people they did in the episode: - When asked if people knew who Snowden was, they often either had no clue or confused him with Julian Assange. They often associated him with Wikileaks, even to the point of believing him to be leading it. - They often saw his actions as damaging the US and its troops in the Middle East. - They near consistently had a negative view of him. - When given a simple to understand explanation of what he revealed (the government can see your dick pics), nearly all of them were surprised, had no idea that it was true (and exactly what Snowden had shown us) and shared the view that the government shouldn't have that kind of power. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M

by dimino 11y ago

toxican 11y ago

I guess this is kind of where I'm at with him. Although I don't really think he's a "bad guy". What he did was treason and it was "wrong", but I think in this case the ends justify the means. What he exposed was far worse than how he did it.

diyorgasms 11y ago
You do realize that the crime of treason is codified in the United States Constitution, and that what Snowden did in no way meets the criteria enumerated there. Careful throwing the word "treason" around like that, it can make you appear ignorant.
- eatbuckyballs 11y ago
  It's likely he'll see the charges of "Aiding the Enemy", "Illegal disclosure of Classified Information", and "Unauthorized removal and retention of Classified information". That said, Treason isn't as hard to apply as people are making it out to be. “If you think that one, Al Qaeda and similar groups are the enemy for purposes of treason; two, his actions assisted them in operations against the U.S.; and three, that was his intention,” Harrison said, “then the argument that it was treason is pretty good.” - John Harrison UVA LAW specializing in constitutional law and history.
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
People are celebrated for treason. Like George Washington.

atom-morgan 11y ago

> These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. That logic should scare the living hell out of people.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
dimino 11y ago
Why? I myself am not over the moon about what Snowden did, though I recognize the necessity for it, and don't hold any personal grudge against him for it. I just don't trust people to accurately asses whether or not something is "leak worthy", and I don't want to create a safe path for folks just because they thought what they were leaking was important for the world to know. It ruins the concept of holding government secrets, something I think benefits the US and other governments more than it harms them and the people they serve. I think it should be a huge risk, and carry dire consequences, in general, when you release classified information. In this specific case, perhaps the fact that the US courts, congress, and the US people have all collectively been appalled at what the US government has been doing should exonerate Snowden, but only in this specific case. I would not like any kind of precedent to be set, for the aforementioned reason. I hope Obama pardons him in his last days in office, or offers him a deal where he is allowed back in the US without serving any jail time. What's wrong with my logic?
- atom-morgan 11y ago
  Because Snowden told the public what they're own government is doing - things they shouldn't be doing. Operations that people would have considered Orwellian a decade or two ago. Things they've blatantly lied about [1]. Another user in this thread, jordigh, covers why this has been important in the past. [1] http://rare.us/story/nsa-chief-i-didnt-lie-to-congress-about-spying-on-millions-of-americans-i-just-forgot-about-it/ http://rare.us/story/nsa-chief-i-didnt-lie-to-congress-about...
  - 11y ago

deciplex 11y ago

Honestly, the fact that it's only 64% raises my opinion of Americans slightly. The barrage of propaganda you have to put up with there is truly remarkable, and especially considering the rivers of bullshit that streamed out of every single major media outlet in the wake of this, the fact the over one in three Americans still thinks he's an alright guy, with one in ten considering him a hero, speaks volumes for their resistance to it. Nice work, America.

derf_ 11y ago

Would this be the same population polled in 2010 when 41% of them could not name the vice president of the United States in an open-ended (not multiple choice) question? [0] Or last September when 64% of them could not name the three branches of government? [1] (35% could not name a single one) My favorite poll is this one: http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/03/16/americans-privacy-strategies-post-snowden/ http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/03/16/americans-privacy-stra... Buried near the bottom is, "60% believe it is acceptable to monitor the communications of American leaders." Raise your hand if you think it's good for a healthy democracy for the executive branch to monitor the private communications of congresspeople, senators, and federal judges? [0] http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey-who-knows-what-about-religion/#Nonreligious http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-s... [1] http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/americans-know-surprisingly-little-about-their-government-survey-finds/ http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/americans-know-su...

spacehome 11y ago
Eh, to be fair, the vice president has very little power and doesn't seem to be of any great consequence.
dimino 11y ago
Hah, I don't think anyone would disagree with you if your thesis here is "most people are generally uninformed". That being said, technically speaking yes, it probably was a different set of people polled, just considering how the nature of polling works! What you're not understanding though is that people actually seem to separate the content of the leak with the act of the leak. All it takes is a quick Google of "NSA spying program polling" to see polls affirming that hypothesis (folks disapprove of Snowden, but also heavily disapprove of the NSA spying program). Snowden himself has been known to beg folks during his interviews to stop caring about him or what he did, and focus on the content of the information he released, and I'd agree. So what if folks don't like Snowden?

ionised 11y ago

I get the impression that the general population doesn't actually fully understand what the government has done.

Veratyr 11y ago
Watching through the John Oliver episode with Snowden [1], that's pretty clear. To sum up the interviews with people they did in the episode: - When asked if people knew who Snowden was, they often either had no clue or confused him with Julian Assange. They often associated him with Wikileaks, even to the point of believing him to be leading it. - They often saw his actions as damaging the US and its troops in the Middle East. - They near consistently had a negative view of him. - When given a simple to understand explanation of what he revealed (the government can see your dick pics), nearly all of them were surprised, had no idea that it was true (and exactly what Snowden had shown us) and shared the view that the government shouldn't have that kind of power. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M