3 ms·

> "The percentage of criminals in the United States" Not sure how this is really an additional fact. If you defined criminals in the sense of "criminals as def

by vog 11y ago

> "The percentage of criminals in the United States" Not sure how this is really an additional fact. If you defined criminals in the sense of "criminals as defined in the US", you have almost by definition a direct correlation to the number of prisoners. BTW, here in Germany we also have politicians who think that Europe's criminals concentrate in Germany. Probably every country has some people believing that all criminals come to them. The difference between countries is how much influence those voices have.

zo1 11y ago
The point I'm making is that it's implicit that they are "not" criminals by virtue of there being such a huge discrepancy. This needs to be addressed in a clear, and concise manner instead of making sweeping generalizations about the discrepancy.
- tim333 11y ago
  Who is 'criminal' is fairly arbitrary in many cases. Say you sell some hash to a friend. Legal in some states, can lead to 30 years in some others, generally not a huge crime in the sense of harming others.
  - a8da6b0c91d 11y ago
    Find me one specific example of a person in state or federal prison for small time marijuana dealing or possession. No other crimes involved. Doesn't happen. Often, the DA will structure a plea bargain on drug or weapons posession (over a long list of more serious charges) because those are very easy to prove. This idea that the prisons are full of good guys caught up in the system is detached from reality. Most guys doing hard time are guilty of about twenty other things that they haven't been prosecuted for.
    - brianlweiner 11y ago
      Three strike laws in certain states can result in long prison sentences despite relatively minor crimes being committed - including simple possession - http://www.lao.ca.gov/2005/3_strikes/3_strikes_102005.htm#crim http://www.lao.ca.gov/2005/3_strikes/3_strikes_102005.htm#cr... justice system Furthermore black offenders receive sentences that are longer than white offenders - http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304463789858002 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241278873244320045783044... And white people are significantly less likely to be arrested for drug possession, despite usage rates being fairly similar - https://www.aclu.org/news/new-aclu-report-finds-overwhelming-racial-bias-marijuana-arrests https://www.aclu.org/news/new-aclu-report-finds-overwhelming... A prisoner deserves to be sentenced for the crime they were convicted of, not for any possible crimes that we think they may have committed. To behave otherwise is completely antithetical to a society that supposedly values justice So no, prisons aren't "full of good guys", but they're full of people serving sentences that are longer than any rational policy would dictate who have been prosecuted in a system that has been shown time and again to have deep issues with bias and inequality. Not to mention the violence and overcrowding endemic in the prison system. It should be a source of national shame that it has continued this long without real reform.
      - a8da6b0c91d 11y ago
        > white people are significantly less likely to be arrested for drug possession, despite usage rates being fairly similar This is an oft repeated lie. Blacks use narcotics at well over double the white rate. Claims that rates are similar are based on surveys, as opposed to test data. Anyway, you are missing the point here that prosecutors know exactly who they're convicting. Sentences now are almost all plea bargains. They get serious criminals to plea out on narcotics charges rather than go to court and face the full set of charges and a 25 year sentence. They don't even bother prosecuting some kid with some drugs. This is how the system works. It may be problematic, but it's not as broken as naive people assume.
        vogan42 11y ago
        You point to data (not really, no sources) You ignore alcohol usage entirely. You generalize the behavior of all prosecutors, without data again. And you seem think you are not naive and that in some way the system is "working"... System works to what end ?
- DanBC 11y ago
  You should probably edit your original post, because this point is not at all clear from that post.
  - zo1 11y ago
    Unfortunately, it's not letting me.
theorique 11y ago
In Europe, as well, there's a significant and rising problem of crime associated with migrants from the Middle East and Africa, right?
- Xylakant 11y ago
  If controlled for factors such as social status, income, education statistics indicate that migrants are neither more nor less criminal than germans - a fact that I personally do not find surprising. Certainly there's now more crimes in absolute numbers since there are more migrants, but well - that's not surprising either. We also do have sufficient "european" crime to around, the mafia, east european gangs breaking into flats etc, and on top we have sufficient amounts of good old german crime - we're good at tax evasion, cheating on libor rates etc. All in all I'm not afraid that migrants will push german criminals out of their jobs.

by vog 11y ago

zo1 11y ago

The point I'm making is that it's implicit that they are "not" criminals by virtue of there being such a huge discrepancy. This needs to be addressed in a clear, and concise manner instead of making sweeping generalizations about the discrepancy.

tim333 11y ago
Who is 'criminal' is fairly arbitrary in many cases. Say you sell some hash to a friend. Legal in some states, can lead to 30 years in some others, generally not a huge crime in the sense of harming others.
- a8da6b0c91d 11y ago
  Find me one specific example of a person in state or federal prison for small time marijuana dealing or possession. No other crimes involved. Doesn't happen. Often, the DA will structure a plea bargain on drug or weapons posession (over a long list of more serious charges) because those are very easy to prove. This idea that the prisons are full of good guys caught up in the system is detached from reality. Most guys doing hard time are guilty of about twenty other things that they haven't been prosecuted for.
  - brianlweiner 11y ago
    Three strike laws in certain states can result in long prison sentences despite relatively minor crimes being committed - including simple possession - http://www.lao.ca.gov/2005/3_strikes/3_strikes_102005.htm#crim http://www.lao.ca.gov/2005/3_strikes/3_strikes_102005.htm#cr... justice system Furthermore black offenders receive sentences that are longer than white offenders - http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304463789858002 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241278873244320045783044... And white people are significantly less likely to be arrested for drug possession, despite usage rates being fairly similar - https://www.aclu.org/news/new-aclu-report-finds-overwhelming-racial-bias-marijuana-arrests https://www.aclu.org/news/new-aclu-report-finds-overwhelming... A prisoner deserves to be sentenced for the crime they were convicted of, not for any possible crimes that we think they may have committed. To behave otherwise is completely antithetical to a society that supposedly values justice So no, prisons aren't "full of good guys", but they're full of people serving sentences that are longer than any rational policy would dictate who have been prosecuted in a system that has been shown time and again to have deep issues with bias and inequality. Not to mention the violence and overcrowding endemic in the prison system. It should be a source of national shame that it has continued this long without real reform.
    - a8da6b0c91d 11y ago
      > white people are significantly less likely to be arrested for drug possession, despite usage rates being fairly similar This is an oft repeated lie. Blacks use narcotics at well over double the white rate. Claims that rates are similar are based on surveys, as opposed to test data. Anyway, you are missing the point here that prosecutors know exactly who they're convicting. Sentences now are almost all plea bargains. They get serious criminals to plea out on narcotics charges rather than go to court and face the full set of charges and a 25 year sentence. They don't even bother prosecuting some kid with some drugs. This is how the system works. It may be problematic, but it's not as broken as naive people assume.
      - vogan42 11y ago
        You point to data (not really, no sources) You ignore alcohol usage entirely. You generalize the behavior of all prosecutors, without data again. And you seem think you are not naive and that in some way the system is "working"... System works to what end ?
DanBC 11y ago
You should probably edit your original post, because this point is not at all clear from that post.
- zo1 11y ago
  Unfortunately, it's not letting me.

theorique 11y ago

In Europe, as well, there's a significant and rising problem of crime associated with migrants from the Middle East and Africa, right?

Xylakant 11y ago
If controlled for factors such as social status, income, education statistics indicate that migrants are neither more nor less criminal than germans - a fact that I personally do not find surprising. Certainly there's now more crimes in absolute numbers since there are more migrants, but well - that's not surprising either. We also do have sufficient "european" crime to around, the mafia, east european gangs breaking into flats etc, and on top we have sufficient amounts of good old german crime - we're good at tax evasion, cheating on libor rates etc. All in all I'm not afraid that migrants will push german criminals out of their jobs.