3 ms·

But what's the the alternative? MANY people consult and freelance. They are not unemployed. Moreover, their income does not necessarily tie to hours worked.

justincormack 11y ago
Sure, but surveys suggest that many self employed people would like to get more work, and that they have significantly lower incomes than when they were employed. The best data is from the RSA https://www.thersa.org/discover/publications-and-articles/reports/salvation-in-a-start-up/ https://www.thersa.org/discover/publications-and-articles/re...
the-dude 11y ago
Many of these people are forced into self-employment because : no jobs. See also : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precariat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precariat
- blumkvist 11y ago
  Oh god... basic income... AGAIN in the HN comments. It becomes VERY difficult to believe this is not sponsored propaganda. It's in pretty much every thread now.
  - the-dude 11y ago
    Don't put words into my mouth : I didn't mention basic income, I pointed to the 'precariat'. Which is very real in my perception.
- hnnewguy 11y ago
  Those people are considered unemployed in the U6 measure. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm
pjc50 11y ago
This is subtly different. It's also not well-documented, but there have been some investigations: http://watchinga4e.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/radio-5-live-investigates-self.html http://watchinga4e.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/radio-5-live-inves... From a longer blog post: http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2013/03/03/the-transition-towards-a-low-trust-society/ http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2013/03/03/the-transition-t... - note the detail that people on "work programme" placements are not counted as unemployed. See https://welfaretales.wordpress.com/category/work-program-2/ https://welfaretales.wordpress.com/category/work-program-2/ The "sharing economy" is another factor in this. If someone signs up for e.g. Taskrabbit and does a few hours a week, they're then "self-employed" and no longer count against the unemployment statistics, they can claim tax credit (especially if they have a child, you get quite a lot) and housing benefit to cover for the fact that the 'work' pays nowhere near enough to live on.
- hnnewguy 11y ago
  >If someone signs up for e.g. Taskrabbit and does a few hours a week, they're then "self-employed" and no longer count against the unemployment statistics Are you implying that this is having a significant effect on the US unemployment statistics? And that, in the context of the article and discussion, there is no economic recovery? Every time unemployment statistics are brought up, anywhere on the internet, these edge cases get presented. Read how the BLS measures are calculated. Yes, the unemployment rate is based off of surveys and statistical inference, so isn't a 100% accurate representation of the real world. Yes, the dynamics of the labor force change over time, and it isn't necessarily stable over decades or centuries. But the U6 measure, which includes "discouraged workers" who are no longer looking for work, as well as those forced to work part-time for "economic reasons" has fallen from a peak of 16.7% in 2010 to 11.3% today. That sort of move just isn't explained by people signing up for TaskRabbit, or anything like it. I think part of the reason people deny a recovery is occurring is that they conflate it with boom times. Recovery doesn't mean everything is running at capacity; it doesn't even mean we've recovered yet. It means the trend is up. Looking back to 2009, that's hard to deny.
  - pjc50 11y ago

justincormack 11y ago

Sure, but surveys suggest that many self employed people would like to get more work, and that they have significantly lower incomes than when they were employed. The best data is from the RSA https://www.thersa.org/discover/publications-and-articles/reports/salvation-in-a-start-up/ https://www.thersa.org/discover/publications-and-articles/re...

the-dude 11y ago

Many of these people are forced into self-employment because : no jobs. See also : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precariat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precariat

blumkvist 11y ago
Oh god... basic income... AGAIN in the HN comments. It becomes VERY difficult to believe this is not sponsored propaganda. It's in pretty much every thread now.
- the-dude 11y ago
  Don't put words into my mouth : I didn't mention basic income, I pointed to the 'precariat'. Which is very real in my perception.
hnnewguy 11y ago
Those people are considered unemployed in the U6 measure. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm

pjc50 11y ago

This is subtly different. It's also not well-documented, but there have been some investigations: http://watchinga4e.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/radio-5-live-investigates-self.html http://watchinga4e.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/radio-5-live-inves... From a longer blog post: http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2013/03/03/the-transition-towards-a-low-trust-society/ http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2013/03/03/the-transition-t... - note the detail that people on "work programme" placements are not counted as unemployed. See https://welfaretales.wordpress.com/category/work-program-2/ https://welfaretales.wordpress.com/category/work-program-2/ The "sharing economy" is another factor in this. If someone signs up for e.g. Taskrabbit and does a few hours a week, they're then "self-employed" and no longer count against the unemployment statistics, they can claim tax credit (especially if they have a child, you get quite a lot) and housing benefit to cover for the fact that the 'work' pays nowhere near enough to live on.

hnnewguy 11y ago
>If someone signs up for e.g. Taskrabbit and does a few hours a week, they're then "self-employed" and no longer count against the unemployment statistics Are you implying that this is having a significant effect on the US unemployment statistics? And that, in the context of the article and discussion, there is no economic recovery? Every time unemployment statistics are brought up, anywhere on the internet, these edge cases get presented. Read how the BLS measures are calculated. Yes, the unemployment rate is based off of surveys and statistical inference, so isn't a 100% accurate representation of the real world. Yes, the dynamics of the labor force change over time, and it isn't necessarily stable over decades or centuries. But the U6 measure, which includes "discouraged workers" who are no longer looking for work, as well as those forced to work part-time for "economic reasons" has fallen from a peak of 16.7% in 2010 to 11.3% today. That sort of move just isn't explained by people signing up for TaskRabbit, or anything like it. I think part of the reason people deny a recovery is occurring is that they conflate it with boom times. Recovery doesn't mean everything is running at capacity; it doesn't even mean we've recovered yet. It means the trend is up. Looking back to 2009, that's hard to deny.
- pjc50 11y ago