4 ms·

What would make you say that? I've seen other reports saying that unemployment rate have gone down and also companies hiring is low. Which is pretty bad imo.

What would make you say that? I've seen other reports saying that unemployment rate have gone down and also companies hiring is low. Which is pretty bad imo. But I'm curious to see if there are any other indicators that the economy is not going to pick up any time soon.

the-dude 11y ago
Unemployment rates are hard to interpret without context : some countries consider a 4-hour/week job as 'employed' ( US? ). In The Netherlands the unemployment rate fell not because there are more jobs, but because people are exiting the labor force ( retirees, baby-boom ). edit: typo
- pjc50 11y ago
  The UK has done something similar with pushing a large number of people into "self-employment" where their hours are not verifiable.
  - blumkvist 11y ago
    But what's the the alternative? MANY people consult and freelance. They are not unemployed. Moreover, their income does not necessarily tie to hours worked.
    - justincormack 11y ago
      Sure, but surveys suggest that many self employed people would like to get more work, and that they have significantly lower incomes than when they were employed. The best data is from the RSA https://www.thersa.org/discover/publications-and-articles/reports/salvation-in-a-start-up/ https://www.thersa.org/discover/publications-and-articles/re...
    - the-dude 11y ago
      Many of these people are forced into self-employment because : no jobs. See also : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precariat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precariat
      - blumkvist 11y ago
        Oh god... basic income... AGAIN in the HN comments. It becomes VERY difficult to believe this is not sponsored propaganda. It's in pretty much every thread now.
        the-dude 11y ago
        Don't put words into my mouth : I didn't mention basic income, I pointed to the 'precariat'. Which is very real in my perception.
      - hnnewguy 11y ago
        Those people are considered unemployed in the U6 measure. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm
    - pjc50 11y ago
      This is subtly different. It's also not well-documented, but there have been some investigations: http://watchinga4e.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/radio-5-live-investigates-self.html http://watchinga4e.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/radio-5-live-inves... From a longer blog post: http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2013/03/03/the-transition-towards-a-low-trust-society/ http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2013/03/03/the-transition-t... - note the detail that people on "work programme" placements are not counted as unemployed. See https://welfaretales.wordpress.com/category/work-program-2/ https://welfaretales.wordpress.com/category/work-program-2/ The "sharing economy" is another factor in this. If someone signs up for e.g. Taskrabbit and does a few hours a week, they're then "self-employed" and no longer count against the unemployment statistics, they can claim tax credit (especially if they have a child, you get quite a lot) and housing benefit to cover for the fact that the 'work' pays nowhere near enough to live on.
      - hnnewguy 11y ago
        >If someone signs up for e.g. Taskrabbit and does a few hours a week, they're then "self-employed" and no longer count against the unemployment statistics Are you implying that this is having a significant effect on the US unemployment statistics? And that, in the context of the article and discussion, there is no economic recovery? Every time unemployment statistics are brought up, anywhere on the internet, these edge cases get presented. Read how the BLS measures are calculated. Yes, the unemployment rate is based off of surveys and statistical inference, so isn't a 100% accurate representation of the real world. Yes, the dynamics of the labor force change over time, and it isn't necessarily stable over decades or centuries. But the U6 measure, which includes "discouraged workers" who are no longer looking for work, as well as those forced to work part-time for "economic reasons" has fallen from a peak of 16.7% in 2010 to 11.3% today. That sort of move just isn't explained by people signing up for TaskRabbit, or anything like it. I think part of the reason people deny a recovery is occurring is that they conflate it with boom times. Recovery doesn't mean everything is running at capacity; it doesn't even mean we've recovered yet. It means the trend is up. Looking back to 2009, that's hard to deny.
        pjc50 11y ago
- minikites 11y ago
  It's important to remember that the US Government's Bureau of Labor Statistics counts six separate unemployment rates, there isn't just one: U1: Percentage of labor force unemployed 15 weeks or longer. U2: Percentage of labor force who lost jobs or completed temporary work. U3: Official unemployment rate per the ILO definition occurs when people are without jobs and they have actively looked for work within the past four weeks. U4: U3 + "discouraged workers", or those who have stopped looking for work because current economic conditions make them believe that no work is available for them. U5: U4 + other "marginally attached workers", or "loosely attached workers", or those who "would like" and are able to work, but have not looked for work recently. U6: U5 + Part-time workers who want to work full-time, but cannot due to economic reasons (underemployment).
honksillet 11y ago
Well Q1 GDP was 0.2% and that could well be revised into negative territory. (http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/glance.htm http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/glance.htm) The two data points the article cites does not a robust economy make.

the-dude 11y ago

Unemployment rates are hard to interpret without context : some countries consider a 4-hour/week job as 'employed' ( US? ). In The Netherlands the unemployment rate fell not because there are more jobs, but because people are exiting the labor force ( retirees, baby-boom ). edit: typo

pjc50 11y ago
The UK has done something similar with pushing a large number of people into "self-employment" where their hours are not verifiable.
- blumkvist 11y ago
  But what's the the alternative? MANY people consult and freelance. They are not unemployed. Moreover, their income does not necessarily tie to hours worked.
  - justincormack 11y ago
    Sure, but surveys suggest that many self employed people would like to get more work, and that they have significantly lower incomes than when they were employed. The best data is from the RSA https://www.thersa.org/discover/publications-and-articles/reports/salvation-in-a-start-up/ https://www.thersa.org/discover/publications-and-articles/re...
  - the-dude 11y ago
    Many of these people are forced into self-employment because : no jobs. See also : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precariat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precariat
    - blumkvist 11y ago
      Oh god... basic income... AGAIN in the HN comments. It becomes VERY difficult to believe this is not sponsored propaganda. It's in pretty much every thread now.
      - the-dude 11y ago
        Don't put words into my mouth : I didn't mention basic income, I pointed to the 'precariat'. Which is very real in my perception.
    - hnnewguy 11y ago
      Those people are considered unemployed in the U6 measure. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm
  - pjc50 11y ago
    This is subtly different. It's also not well-documented, but there have been some investigations: http://watchinga4e.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/radio-5-live-investigates-self.html http://watchinga4e.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/radio-5-live-inves... From a longer blog post: http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2013/03/03/the-transition-towards-a-low-trust-society/ http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2013/03/03/the-transition-t... - note the detail that people on "work programme" placements are not counted as unemployed. See https://welfaretales.wordpress.com/category/work-program-2/ https://welfaretales.wordpress.com/category/work-program-2/ The "sharing economy" is another factor in this. If someone signs up for e.g. Taskrabbit and does a few hours a week, they're then "self-employed" and no longer count against the unemployment statistics, they can claim tax credit (especially if they have a child, you get quite a lot) and housing benefit to cover for the fact that the 'work' pays nowhere near enough to live on.
    - hnnewguy 11y ago
      >If someone signs up for e.g. Taskrabbit and does a few hours a week, they're then "self-employed" and no longer count against the unemployment statistics Are you implying that this is having a significant effect on the US unemployment statistics? And that, in the context of the article and discussion, there is no economic recovery? Every time unemployment statistics are brought up, anywhere on the internet, these edge cases get presented. Read how the BLS measures are calculated. Yes, the unemployment rate is based off of surveys and statistical inference, so isn't a 100% accurate representation of the real world. Yes, the dynamics of the labor force change over time, and it isn't necessarily stable over decades or centuries. But the U6 measure, which includes "discouraged workers" who are no longer looking for work, as well as those forced to work part-time for "economic reasons" has fallen from a peak of 16.7% in 2010 to 11.3% today. That sort of move just isn't explained by people signing up for TaskRabbit, or anything like it. I think part of the reason people deny a recovery is occurring is that they conflate it with boom times. Recovery doesn't mean everything is running at capacity; it doesn't even mean we've recovered yet. It means the trend is up. Looking back to 2009, that's hard to deny.
      - pjc50 11y ago
minikites 11y ago
It's important to remember that the US Government's Bureau of Labor Statistics counts six separate unemployment rates, there isn't just one: U1: Percentage of labor force unemployed 15 weeks or longer. U2: Percentage of labor force who lost jobs or completed temporary work. U3: Official unemployment rate per the ILO definition occurs when people are without jobs and they have actively looked for work within the past four weeks. U4: U3 + "discouraged workers", or those who have stopped looking for work because current economic conditions make them believe that no work is available for them. U5: U4 + other "marginally attached workers", or "loosely attached workers", or those who "would like" and are able to work, but have not looked for work recently. U6: U5 + Part-time workers who want to work full-time, but cannot due to economic reasons (underemployment).

honksillet 11y ago

Well Q1 GDP was 0.2% and that could well be revised into negative territory. (http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/glance.htm http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/glance.htm) The two data points the article cites does not a robust economy make.