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Been there, done that, regretted it. I think it depends on the scope of your project. Small to mid-sized project? You must use a framework, or you will end u

by mrtron 19y ago

Been there, done that, regretted it. I think it depends on the scope of your project. Small to mid-sized project? You must use a framework, or you will end up with a bug-filled half implemented version of a framework that exists. Large project? Perhaps you can write a framework, but perhaps consider extending a current framework to your likings. Why the hell would you write your own framework and reproduce all the features of an existing framework (if such a framework exists, which it does for Java, Ruby, Python, etc.)

bsaunder 19y ago
"Why the hell would you write your own framework and reproduce all the features of an existing framework" For fun. To learn a new language. Because you have a new idea to explore. Because sometimes people do invent better wheels (I love the irony in this phrase, given this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecanum_wheel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecanum_wheel ) So you are saying for a large project it might be justifiable to implement your own framework? I would think for a smaller project you could quickly put something together in less time that the learning curve for some of the frameworks. Bug-filled/half implemented seems to be more a comment on programming ability than the decision to write a framework. Fortunately for many people, others have decided they would rather write a new framework than use something that exists.
- mrtron 19y ago
  I am sorry, I disagree with >Bug-filled/half implemented seems to be more a comment on programming ability than the decision to write a framework. How you can write a fully featured, bug free framework better than an entire web community? Sure writing your own framework is interesting, but I feel my skills are lesser than a huge community of people working together. A smaller project you would not build a large framework, you would build a tiny subsection of features, however then you cannot easily add caching, internationalization, etc if needed. Many programmers will write their own framework. Most of these programmers will jump on a common framework afterwords. I fully agree with >For fun. To learn a new language. Because you have a new idea to explore.
  - axod 19y ago
    "How you can write a fully featured, bug free framework better than an entire web community?" How can a small startup team write software better than an entire corporation? Sorry, but bigger+more developers isn't necessarily better.
    - mrtron 19y ago
      >How can a small startup team write software better than an entire corporation? Sorry, but bigger+more developers isn't necessarily better. In a startup I would suggest your efforts would be better working on your core competency. For many people, publishing to the web is just a tiny piece of their startup.
  - bsaunder 19y ago
    I think to be one of the principle developers at a start-up, you need to do better than feeling like your "skills are lesser than a huge community of people working together". IMHO, the two/three primary developers at a start-up should be able to code up a new framework that better meets their needs (though possibly less total features) in less time and with fewer bugs than a huge community. It shouldn't even be a close race. Also, by developing their own framework they will know exactly what parts suck and still need work and be better able to support it at launch.
    - mrtron 19y ago
      Sure, but what if publishing to the web is about ~10% of your business, and not your competitive advantage? Do you really want your primary developers coding up a new framework?
cstejerean 19y ago
I disagree. Often if you write your own framework you end up with small, maintainable code that you fully understand and that does exactly what you need. Different reasons for writing a new framework: 1. sometimes you disagree with the general direction of the available frameworks. Different people can think differently (think for a second about the different TYPES of frameworks available for web development) 2. a lot of times you don't need 100% of someone else's framework. 3. sometimes it's faster to write something than to research available frameworks and read their documentation. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against code reuse. For tedious work (like re-implementing a protocol with a nasty spec) you want to use a library that someone else has developed and tested. For doing crypto you probably want algorithms and libraries that have been well studied and tested. I look at frameworks (not libraries) as examples of how to integrate various libraries and an approach to solving the particular problem. This is good. Take a look at many frameworks and get inspiration. But then feel free to write something that works for you, reusing code where necessary. That's the beauty of open source.
axod 19y ago
Most existing frameworks are designed to cover a million use-cases. Which makes them non-optimal, and overly complex.

by mrtron 19y ago

bsaunder 19y ago

"Why the hell would you write your own framework and reproduce all the features of an existing framework" For fun. To learn a new language. Because you have a new idea to explore. Because sometimes people do invent better wheels (I love the irony in this phrase, given this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecanum_wheel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecanum_wheel ) So you are saying for a large project it might be justifiable to implement your own framework? I would think for a smaller project you could quickly put something together in less time that the learning curve for some of the frameworks. Bug-filled/half implemented seems to be more a comment on programming ability than the decision to write a framework. Fortunately for many people, others have decided they would rather write a new framework than use something that exists.

mrtron 19y ago
I am sorry, I disagree with >Bug-filled/half implemented seems to be more a comment on programming ability than the decision to write a framework. How you can write a fully featured, bug free framework better than an entire web community? Sure writing your own framework is interesting, but I feel my skills are lesser than a huge community of people working together. A smaller project you would not build a large framework, you would build a tiny subsection of features, however then you cannot easily add caching, internationalization, etc if needed. Many programmers will write their own framework. Most of these programmers will jump on a common framework afterwords. I fully agree with >For fun. To learn a new language. Because you have a new idea to explore.
- axod 19y ago
  "How you can write a fully featured, bug free framework better than an entire web community?" How can a small startup team write software better than an entire corporation? Sorry, but bigger+more developers isn't necessarily better.
  - mrtron 19y ago
    >How can a small startup team write software better than an entire corporation? Sorry, but bigger+more developers isn't necessarily better. In a startup I would suggest your efforts would be better working on your core competency. For many people, publishing to the web is just a tiny piece of their startup.
- bsaunder 19y ago
  I think to be one of the principle developers at a start-up, you need to do better than feeling like your "skills are lesser than a huge community of people working together". IMHO, the two/three primary developers at a start-up should be able to code up a new framework that better meets their needs (though possibly less total features) in less time and with fewer bugs than a huge community. It shouldn't even be a close race. Also, by developing their own framework they will know exactly what parts suck and still need work and be better able to support it at launch.
  - mrtron 19y ago
    Sure, but what if publishing to the web is about ~10% of your business, and not your competitive advantage? Do you really want your primary developers coding up a new framework?

cstejerean 19y ago

I disagree. Often if you write your own framework you end up with small, maintainable code that you fully understand and that does exactly what you need. Different reasons for writing a new framework: 1. sometimes you disagree with the general direction of the available frameworks. Different people can think differently (think for a second about the different TYPES of frameworks available for web development) 2. a lot of times you don't need 100% of someone else's framework. 3. sometimes it's faster to write something than to research available frameworks and read their documentation. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against code reuse. For tedious work (like re-implementing a protocol with a nasty spec) you want to use a library that someone else has developed and tested. For doing crypto you probably want algorithms and libraries that have been well studied and tested. I look at frameworks (not libraries) as examples of how to integrate various libraries and an approach to solving the particular problem. This is good. Take a look at many frameworks and get inspiration. But then feel free to write something that works for you, reusing code where necessary. That's the beauty of open source.

axod 19y ago

Most existing frameworks are designed to cover a million use-cases. Which makes them non-optimal, and overly complex.