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Your comment lacks the context of China's economic policy. As bizarre as it sounds, Top Gear actually hit on it during one of their specials: http://youtu.be/K

Your comment lacks the context of China's economic policy. As bizarre as it sounds, Top Gear actually hit on it during one of their specials: http://youtu.be/K0bNf-jcVU0 http://youtu.be/K0bNf-jcVU0 I know it's easy to discard what you're reading as nationalism, but the Chinese have a long history of theft of intellectual property and protecting it at the state level. It isn't about national pride at all, for me; our industry is one that is directly targeted. A new iPhone is copied in weeks, and that's not only a direct shot at American exports, it's a direct shot at my work. Why should I put the work into innovating when cheap copies will flood the market? There's a slight difference between incremental improvement and the economic espionage described in the article, though I grant you the line is fine. You're potentially starting to see more desperate maneuvers (this isn't the first, and I agree with you that it's a potential stretch) because it's really hard to prosecute most of these and it's been an issue for a long time.

pyre 11y ago
There is a difference between PRC specifically sending agents to the US to steal specific technologies, and a random group of Chinese nationals deciding to take US tech back home and profit off of it.
- jsmthrowaway 11y ago
  You're implying that you can discern the difference.
  - derefr 11y ago
    No, the reverse; the implication is that, since you can't tell the difference, you should be charitable and assume it's just some random people with a coincidental feature of X, rather than an X-ist conspiriacy. A lack of this kind of charity is what creates ideas like "the jews control the banks" or "the gay agenda."
- azakai 11y ago
  Indeed, and furthermore, because of the sheer size of the population of China, it shouldn't surprise us to see stories about this that involve Chinese nationals. It's not surprising there are lots of great people but also less-great ones as well; it's a big country! To actually suggest that there is some "organized Chinese conspiracy" thing happening, someone would need to show that this happens more often than statistically expected.
nickbauman 11y ago
Just like the US did before it emerged as the #1 industrial producer in the world.
- throwaway344 11y ago
  Up until 1865, the United States made extensive use of slave labor to grow its economy. It also made use of foreign innovations, stealing others' intellectual property. Both were immoral, and neither should be accepted today.
  - mc32 11y ago
    To belabor the point generally speaking all western and Latin powers of the era employed slave labor and stole from each other. Today lots of emerging countries still rely on what is in practice servitude labor. They don't outright own the people, but they practically do since they have little chance of escaping their situation. Migrants in se Asia. Rural folks working in Eastern china, etc., where employers withhold passports, international and national "passports".
    - nickbauman 11y ago
      This happens in the US, too, right now.
      - mc32 11y ago
        Just about everything exists everywhere, what matters is extent and degree and what authorities do once they find out.
        nickbauman 11y ago
        It's commonplace. The H1-B visa is virtually designed for indentured servitude.
  - lazaroclapp 11y ago
    Most of the world agrees that slavery is ethically unjustifiable. Not everyone agrees to the same notions of intellectual property as the U.S. does, even among the developed world. Also, even those who like IP laws in the U.S. would agree that comparing poor IP laws to allowing slavery is beyond absurd. This story is, essentially: five people violated the law of their host country in a way that if they had been citizens would have led to a civil lawsuit. As a result, they are being charged and reported as state-sponsored spies.
ChuckMcM 11y ago
Does the context apply? Lets say you saw a really cool operating system from Bell Labs called UNIX but they were all pissy about trademarks and licensing fees so you made your own that, to the user is similar enough that you don't have to learn a bunch of new syntax or command options, but to avoid AT&T's lawyers from being confused that maybe you ripped off their code you call yours Linux. Cheerios from P&G, Honey-Os from Trader Joes? Dr Pepper from the Dr Pepper/Snapple folks or Dr Skipper from the kind folks at Safeway? And really who is the "good guy" and who is the "bad guy" here? In all of the product "rip offs" in the US and in China they are significantly cheaper than the 'branded' version. So consumers have a choice, the widget made to the 'brand's level of quality or one made as cheap as possible. And a lot of consumers go for the cheap ones. That is why I see a bunch of Comkia Ipad chargers rather than Apple ones. The fact that a lot of this originates in China has, in my opinion, more to do with the fact that things are manufactured there, rather than the fact that they are Chinese. Even before the great American manufacturing diaspora there were US manufacturers making "cheap knock offs" of various kinds of things. Here in the land of Right and Legitimacy. Basically, there are a lot of American consumers that go for 'cheap'. And there appears to be a lot of Chinese consumers who want the "look" of an expensive brand but they don't want to pay a premium for it. So they get it from the shop owned by an uncle or something. Now I am the first guy to cry "Foul!" when someone steals the plans to a system that took a long time to develop and then sets up manufacturing without having to pay any development costs. But if factory B goes out and buys a widget that Factory A made, takes it apart and figures they can make it cheaper and they will be sure that people know it isn't a Factory A widget its a Factory B widget? That is just regular competition.
- justinjlynn 11y ago
  There's a difference between cheap generic knock-off and a clone designed to rip-off the buyer by lying about specifications. Generic brands acknowledge what they are and the customer generally knows and can at least expect it to do or be what it says on the tin. What I find most distasteful is that manufacturers there, seemingly especially in electronics and chemical products, don't even bother with that or any semblance or that - "If I get one over on you and don't get caught, good on me / I got caught, you mad bro? what are you going to do, lol." attitude. It's the difference between doing the best you can to provide something like a more expensive product and actively seeking to defraud your customer and not caring. the fact that it's seemingly so pervasive doesn't help matters or reputations of legitimate players.

pyre 11y ago

There is a difference between PRC specifically sending agents to the US to steal specific technologies, and a random group of Chinese nationals deciding to take US tech back home and profit off of it.

jsmthrowaway 11y ago
You're implying that you can discern the difference.
- derefr 11y ago
  No, the reverse; the implication is that, since you can't tell the difference, you should be charitable and assume it's just some random people with a coincidental feature of X, rather than an X-ist conspiriacy. A lack of this kind of charity is what creates ideas like "the jews control the banks" or "the gay agenda."
azakai 11y ago
Indeed, and furthermore, because of the sheer size of the population of China, it shouldn't surprise us to see stories about this that involve Chinese nationals. It's not surprising there are lots of great people but also less-great ones as well; it's a big country! To actually suggest that there is some "organized Chinese conspiracy" thing happening, someone would need to show that this happens more often than statistically expected.

nickbauman 11y ago

Just like the US did before it emerged as the #1 industrial producer in the world.

throwaway344 11y ago
Up until 1865, the United States made extensive use of slave labor to grow its economy. It also made use of foreign innovations, stealing others' intellectual property. Both were immoral, and neither should be accepted today.
- mc32 11y ago
  To belabor the point generally speaking all western and Latin powers of the era employed slave labor and stole from each other. Today lots of emerging countries still rely on what is in practice servitude labor. They don't outright own the people, but they practically do since they have little chance of escaping their situation. Migrants in se Asia. Rural folks working in Eastern china, etc., where employers withhold passports, international and national "passports".
  - nickbauman 11y ago
    This happens in the US, too, right now.
    - mc32 11y ago
      Just about everything exists everywhere, what matters is extent and degree and what authorities do once they find out.
      - nickbauman 11y ago
        It's commonplace. The H1-B visa is virtually designed for indentured servitude.
- lazaroclapp 11y ago
  Most of the world agrees that slavery is ethically unjustifiable. Not everyone agrees to the same notions of intellectual property as the U.S. does, even among the developed world. Also, even those who like IP laws in the U.S. would agree that comparing poor IP laws to allowing slavery is beyond absurd. This story is, essentially: five people violated the law of their host country in a way that if they had been citizens would have led to a civil lawsuit. As a result, they are being charged and reported as state-sponsored spies.

ChuckMcM 11y ago

Does the context apply? Lets say you saw a really cool operating system from Bell Labs called UNIX but they were all pissy about trademarks and licensing fees so you made your own that, to the user is similar enough that you don't have to learn a bunch of new syntax or command options, but to avoid AT&T's lawyers from being confused that maybe you ripped off their code you call yours Linux. Cheerios from P&G, Honey-Os from Trader Joes? Dr Pepper from the Dr Pepper/Snapple folks or Dr Skipper from the kind folks at Safeway? And really who is the "good guy" and who is the "bad guy" here? In all of the product "rip offs" in the US and in China they are significantly cheaper than the 'branded' version. So consumers have a choice, the widget made to the 'brand's level of quality or one made as cheap as possible. And a lot of consumers go for the cheap ones. That is why I see a bunch of Comkia Ipad chargers rather than Apple ones. The fact that a lot of this originates in China has, in my opinion, more to do with the fact that things are manufactured there, rather than the fact that they are Chinese. Even before the great American manufacturing diaspora there were US manufacturers making "cheap knock offs" of various kinds of things. Here in the land of Right and Legitimacy. Basically, there are a lot of American consumers that go for 'cheap'. And there appears to be a lot of Chinese consumers who want the "look" of an expensive brand but they don't want to pay a premium for it. So they get it from the shop owned by an uncle or something. Now I am the first guy to cry "Foul!" when someone steals the plans to a system that took a long time to develop and then sets up manufacturing without having to pay any development costs. But if factory B goes out and buys a widget that Factory A made, takes it apart and figures they can make it cheaper and they will be sure that people know it isn't a Factory A widget its a Factory B widget? That is just regular competition.

justinjlynn 11y ago
There's a difference between cheap generic knock-off and a clone designed to rip-off the buyer by lying about specifications. Generic brands acknowledge what they are and the customer generally knows and can at least expect it to do or be what it says on the tin. What I find most distasteful is that manufacturers there, seemingly especially in electronics and chemical products, don't even bother with that or any semblance or that - "If I get one over on you and don't get caught, good on me / I got caught, you mad bro? what are you going to do, lol." attitude. It's the difference between doing the best you can to provide something like a more expensive product and actively seeking to defraud your customer and not caring. the fact that it's seemingly so pervasive doesn't help matters or reputations of legitimate players.