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I looked into Meteor and it's amazing how everything clicks together. It's just such a drastic change in complexity and feels like a breath of fresh air. The o

I looked into Meteor and it's amazing how everything clicks together. It's just such a drastic change in complexity and feels like a breath of fresh air. The one thing that made me drop it as the choice for a primary stack was the fact that it's tied so heavily into MongoDB. Meteor has a mongodb 'server' replicated client side, that's how they can actually make Meteor so god damn snappy, it's latancy compensation. If they were to integrate something like Postgresql into Meteor, I would easily switch over from Rails and it would become my de-facto web stack. I'll just keep building Rails APIs with EmberJS clients until then, I do hope it's soon though. I loved working with Meteor.

fiatmoney 11y ago
Yes, Mongo dependency is a dealbreaker for many people who would like to be using it.
rglover 11y ago
Folks are working on it: https://github.com/numtel/meteor-pg https://github.com/numtel/meteor-pg. Also there are plans for core support down the road.
- sergiotapia 11y ago
  Oh I know, the guys are very open about the roadmap, they have a Trello board. I'm counting the days where I can finally go all in with Meteor. Everyone I know IRL is excited for Meteor but Mongo is what kept everyone sort of away.
joeriel 11y ago
SQL support is the biggest ask on their Trello board. https://trello.com/b/hjBDflxp/meteor-roadmap https://trello.com/b/hjBDflxp/meteor-roadmap There are some good packages on Atmosphere for PostgreSQL, but I think that it needs to be officially supported/integrated for many people to be comfortable with it.
wishinghand 11y ago
Postgresql would be great, though if they wanted to keep the document style database of Mongo, maybe they could use something like RethinkDB and use its javascript driver?
juliangregorian 11y ago
I'm apprehensive of the security model. Everything is highly ease-of-use optimized, to the point that you can query Mongo via the browser console. My preferred "easy/simple" model of app design is Firebase (backend and JS lib for pure web clients), who have security figured out.
- sergiotapia 11y ago
  What you're saying is only true on a barebones default Meteor app. Please don't comment on a tool if you've never used it for anything other than a hello world, you're doing a very sophisticated tool a huge disservice. You remove the autopublish package and you can no longer query records from the client.
  - juliangregorian 11y ago
    There's no need to be rude. How many people are going to not know that, or forget? Meteor is highly tailored towards beginners. Additionally, Mongo's out-of-the-box security policies are extremely lax as well, and unsecured Mongo instances in the wild are a huge problem.
  - matthewmacleod 11y ago
    I don't necessarily disagree with you, but it's still an astonishingly bad practice as a default. If there's one thing we should have learned from Rails' various security failures, it's that things must be secure by default.
  - nostrademons 11y ago
    Anyone remember register_globals in PHP?
  - debaserab2 11y ago
    There's no excuse for insecure defaults.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
javajosh 11y ago
My take on this is that Meteor (and mongo) is perfectly sized platform for individuals and SMBs. If you make a consumer thing meteor will work too as an MVP, but you'd almost certainly rewrite the backend to use more bespoke code (e.g. in Java REST SOA over Postgres etc.)
KurtMueller 11y ago
I've heard the sales pitch for ember and ember-cli and I've seriously begun developing with Ember for the past 2 weeks. So far, I really like the tooling around Ember but am not a huge fan of the actual framework itself. I mean, you have routers, routes, controllers, views, templates, and components - how many concepts do you need to display a ui? Maybe it's just that I can't see the forest through the trees. Perhaps you could help me gain this perspective?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- andreisoare 11y ago
  You have just one router, and that's only a config file that maps URLs to routes. They're dropping controllers and views in a month, with Ember 2.0. They're being replaced by components. So really you will only work with routes and components - which should make things much easier to understand.
  - KurtMueller 11y ago
    I know that there are talking about "routable components" with one-way data flow (ala react/flux), which hopefully comes soon. Are templates still being kept? It seems like Ember is going to become a bit more like React (which I'm very fine with).
ahachete 11y ago
In ToroDB (https://github.com/torodb/torodb https://github.com/torodb/torodb) we are currently working on implementing MongoDB's oplog server-side. ToroDB would work seamlessly with Meteor, meaning that at the end of the day your data sits on a PostgreSQL database. Watch out our next coming release! :)
- methehack 11y ago
  Wow ToroDB looks really cool! Good idea!
keithwhor 11y ago
Well, you can start using JS for your API server, at least. Nodal [1], a full-featured API server and framework for iojs was just released yesterday with full PostgreSQL integration. (Migration and schema support, to boot.) :) I'm not a huge fan of isomorphic JavaScript. While it seems great for prototyping, I have doubts on its stability, security, and ability to scale. It seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to just having the technology to write web-client and web-server code in the same language and the emergence of SPAs. The thing is, we've had working client-server application architecture (which is what an SPA is) for decades. Every multiplayer game you've ever played. Chat programs. Etc. Nobody would risk the headache of tightly-coupling your data layer, presentation layer, and business layer just to save a few lines of code. We separate our concerns in our code itself with MVC frameworks, why are isomorphic frameworks trying to tightly-couple our actual application layers? It's a little bit contradictory to me. While Meteor seems like a great tool for a couple of newbie developers to rapidly prototype an idea, I'm still not convinced it has the potential to grow into a reasonable architecture. [1] https://github.com/keithwhor/nodal https://github.com/keithwhor/nodal

fiatmoney 11y ago

Yes, Mongo dependency is a dealbreaker for many people who would like to be using it.

rglover 11y ago

Folks are working on it: https://github.com/numtel/meteor-pg https://github.com/numtel/meteor-pg. Also there are plans for core support down the road.

sergiotapia 11y ago
Oh I know, the guys are very open about the roadmap, they have a Trello board. I'm counting the days where I can finally go all in with Meteor. Everyone I know IRL is excited for Meteor but Mongo is what kept everyone sort of away.

joeriel 11y ago

SQL support is the biggest ask on their Trello board. https://trello.com/b/hjBDflxp/meteor-roadmap https://trello.com/b/hjBDflxp/meteor-roadmap There are some good packages on Atmosphere for PostgreSQL, but I think that it needs to be officially supported/integrated for many people to be comfortable with it.

wishinghand 11y ago

Postgresql would be great, though if they wanted to keep the document style database of Mongo, maybe they could use something like RethinkDB and use its javascript driver?

juliangregorian 11y ago

I'm apprehensive of the security model. Everything is highly ease-of-use optimized, to the point that you can query Mongo via the browser console. My preferred "easy/simple" model of app design is Firebase (backend and JS lib for pure web clients), who have security figured out.

sergiotapia 11y ago
What you're saying is only true on a barebones default Meteor app. Please don't comment on a tool if you've never used it for anything other than a hello world, you're doing a very sophisticated tool a huge disservice. You remove the autopublish package and you can no longer query records from the client.
- juliangregorian 11y ago
  There's no need to be rude. How many people are going to not know that, or forget? Meteor is highly tailored towards beginners. Additionally, Mongo's out-of-the-box security policies are extremely lax as well, and unsecured Mongo instances in the wild are a huge problem.
- matthewmacleod 11y ago
  I don't necessarily disagree with you, but it's still an astonishingly bad practice as a default. If there's one thing we should have learned from Rails' various security failures, it's that things must be secure by default.
- nostrademons 11y ago
  Anyone remember register_globals in PHP?
- debaserab2 11y ago
  There's no excuse for insecure defaults.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]

javajosh 11y ago

My take on this is that Meteor (and mongo) is perfectly sized platform for individuals and SMBs. If you make a consumer thing meteor will work too as an MVP, but you'd almost certainly rewrite the backend to use more bespoke code (e.g. in Java REST SOA over Postgres etc.)

KurtMueller 11y ago

I've heard the sales pitch for ember and ember-cli and I've seriously begun developing with Ember for the past 2 weeks. So far, I really like the tooling around Ember but am not a huge fan of the actual framework itself. I mean, you have routers, routes, controllers, views, templates, and components - how many concepts do you need to display a ui? Maybe it's just that I can't see the forest through the trees. Perhaps you could help me gain this perspective?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
andreisoare 11y ago
You have just one router, and that's only a config file that maps URLs to routes. They're dropping controllers and views in a month, with Ember 2.0. They're being replaced by components. So really you will only work with routes and components - which should make things much easier to understand.
- KurtMueller 11y ago
  I know that there are talking about "routable components" with one-way data flow (ala react/flux), which hopefully comes soon. Are templates still being kept? It seems like Ember is going to become a bit more like React (which I'm very fine with).

ahachete 11y ago

In ToroDB (https://github.com/torodb/torodb https://github.com/torodb/torodb) we are currently working on implementing MongoDB's oplog server-side. ToroDB would work seamlessly with Meteor, meaning that at the end of the day your data sits on a PostgreSQL database. Watch out our next coming release! :)

methehack 11y ago
Wow ToroDB looks really cool! Good idea!

keithwhor 11y ago

Well, you can start using JS for your API server, at least. Nodal [1], a full-featured API server and framework for iojs was just released yesterday with full PostgreSQL integration. (Migration and schema support, to boot.) :) I'm not a huge fan of isomorphic JavaScript. While it seems great for prototyping, I have doubts on its stability, security, and ability to scale. It seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to just having the technology to write web-client and web-server code in the same language and the emergence of SPAs. The thing is, we've had working client-server application architecture (which is what an SPA is) for decades. Every multiplayer game you've ever played. Chat programs. Etc. Nobody would risk the headache of tightly-coupling your data layer, presentation layer, and business layer just to save a few lines of code. We separate our concerns in our code itself with MVC frameworks, why are isomorphic frameworks trying to tightly-couple our actual application layers? It's a little bit contradictory to me. While Meteor seems like a great tool for a couple of newbie developers to rapidly prototype an idea, I'm still not convinced it has the potential to grow into a reasonable architecture. [1] https://github.com/keithwhor/nodal https://github.com/keithwhor/nodal