4 ms·

> you're exactly the sort of developers conferences want to filter I would hope conferences want to filter actual harrassers, not people who feel uneasy about

by lamby 11y ago

> you're exactly the sort of developers conferences want to filter I would hope conferences want to filter actual harrassers, not people who feel uneasy about the slight social engineering and censorship undertones of Codes of Conduct.

cp9 11y ago
> censorship saying "don't yell racial epithets" and "don't tell women to make you a sandwich" is not even close to censorship. That's called being a decent person
- lamby 11y ago
  I can't quite believe I'm being sucked into the vortex of irrationality and tedium that is the "Code of Conduct" debate, but if you cannot see that the various codes of conduct in the F/OSS community obviously go beyond merely labelling racist slurs as inappropriate then I'm not sure how we can move forward.
- vdaniuk 11y ago
  This is a complex question, don't reduce it to the one dimensional "decent person" angle. If it would be so simple, the CoC would consist of one phrase: "use common sense during communication with others". I understand and emphasize the need for a comfortable experience for all members of the conference. However, I'd like to present you and others with a hypothetical scenario. The CoC states "Harassment includes offensive verbal comments related to ... religion...". Simple and factual statement that scientology is a total sham (this statement can be easily extended towards most organized religions) would put the speaker in violation of the CoC. Does that seem reasonable to you?
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    I expect the remedy in that situation would be to recommend that the speaker and offended person not discuss religion any further. The horror. I guess it would be harder to deal with for someone giving a talk, but contrive away why it is necessary for a talk about python to make simple factual statements about various religions.
    - vdaniuk 11y ago
      >I expect the remedy in that situation would be to recommend that the speaker and offended person not discuss religion any further. The horror. Let's not simplify and make a more elaborate analysis. Ok, so you propose that developers do not talk about: * religion (scientology) * gender relations (meta-discussion about CoC, dongle incident, gender pronouns, etc) * politics (gay rights, abortion, etc ) * some health topics (anti-vaxxers, homeopathy, obesity epidemic etc) * sexual topics (the ultimate transgression) Do you not understand the possible chilling effects of such policy? Do you not feel that developers should be able to converse and disagree without fear of being labeled as a CoC offender and a non-decent person? Aren't these reasonable questions? Please respond without straw-man arguments about sexual harassment, as that is only a subset of the CoC
      - maxerickson 11y ago
        Did I already make a straw man argument about sexual harassment? I don't think a CoC makes such conversations impossible, interested parties won't be offended. Sure, it could easily go too far, with mild transgressions being reported left and right (ya know, instead of the person just demurring or bowing out of the conversation), but I think it is fair to say that you've then discovered that those aren't reasonable, interesting people to be talking to. What it does is make it impossible for party A to follow party B around, repeatedly calling their beliefs a sham (notice the follow around and repeatedly) and then defend their behavior as appropriate because their statements were truthful and couth (basically, being an ass and then standing on the ceremony of politeness). If you don't think the other participants are going to mostly be reasonable and that staff are going to be reasonable about dealing with mild complaints, don't attend!
        vdaniuk 11y ago
        >If you don't think the other participants are going to mostly be reasonable and that staff are going to be reasonable about dealing with mild complaints, don't attend! This should be a wake up call for you to reconsider your position. "If you don't think the other participants are going to mostly be reasonable and that staff are going to be reasonable about dealing with mild complaints, don't attend!" Can you guess HN reaction to your comment if you would offer same advice to a woman in the context of "sexist, racist, or exclusionary jokes"?
  - cp9 11y ago
    but this is a python convention, not a symposium on religion. Under what context would scientology even come up?
    - vdaniuk 11y ago
      Are you being daft? Lots of people will spend several days together on a cruise ship. They will get acquainted, exchange opinions, drink, have fun, socialize, discuss various topics they are interested in. Developers are human, you know, not some wet-ware apis limited to development/programming topics.
throwacc650 11y ago
> saying "don't yell racial epithets" and "don't tell women to make you a sandwich" is not even close to censorship. That's called being a decent person On paper, diversity and sensitivity is great. I'm a free market capitalist, but the communist manifesto is still the most just draft I've ever read. However, we don't live in a vacuum. BSD, perl, c, linux, python, you name it. These projects welcome all and always have. We dont need a code of conduct. We hate how you jinx our cooperation and success. By the way: Frankly my own black girlfriend loves cooking. I eat together with her family, and we tease each other all the time at the dinner table. Chicken, collared greens, Pepsi. I've never felt so loved. Instead of tucking my balls between my legs, we laughed like hyenas over wars between our races. Dad was like "gimme my damn food woman!!" Our dinner was on paper, racist. But our expression brought us closer, and its worth more than 160 characters. Political correctness is a pressure cooker strangling both our families' necks.

by lamby 11y ago

cp9 11y ago

> censorship saying "don't yell racial epithets" and "don't tell women to make you a sandwich" is not even close to censorship. That's called being a decent person

lamby 11y ago
I can't quite believe I'm being sucked into the vortex of irrationality and tedium that is the "Code of Conduct" debate, but if you cannot see that the various codes of conduct in the F/OSS community obviously go beyond merely labelling racist slurs as inappropriate then I'm not sure how we can move forward.
vdaniuk 11y ago
This is a complex question, don't reduce it to the one dimensional "decent person" angle. If it would be so simple, the CoC would consist of one phrase: "use common sense during communication with others". I understand and emphasize the need for a comfortable experience for all members of the conference. However, I'd like to present you and others with a hypothetical scenario. The CoC states "Harassment includes offensive verbal comments related to ... religion...". Simple and factual statement that scientology is a total sham (this statement can be easily extended towards most organized religions) would put the speaker in violation of the CoC. Does that seem reasonable to you?
- maxerickson 11y ago
  I expect the remedy in that situation would be to recommend that the speaker and offended person not discuss religion any further. The horror. I guess it would be harder to deal with for someone giving a talk, but contrive away why it is necessary for a talk about python to make simple factual statements about various religions.
  - vdaniuk 11y ago
    >I expect the remedy in that situation would be to recommend that the speaker and offended person not discuss religion any further. The horror. Let's not simplify and make a more elaborate analysis. Ok, so you propose that developers do not talk about: * religion (scientology) * gender relations (meta-discussion about CoC, dongle incident, gender pronouns, etc) * politics (gay rights, abortion, etc ) * some health topics (anti-vaxxers, homeopathy, obesity epidemic etc) * sexual topics (the ultimate transgression) Do you not understand the possible chilling effects of such policy? Do you not feel that developers should be able to converse and disagree without fear of being labeled as a CoC offender and a non-decent person? Aren't these reasonable questions? Please respond without straw-man arguments about sexual harassment, as that is only a subset of the CoC
    - maxerickson 11y ago
      Did I already make a straw man argument about sexual harassment? I don't think a CoC makes such conversations impossible, interested parties won't be offended. Sure, it could easily go too far, with mild transgressions being reported left and right (ya know, instead of the person just demurring or bowing out of the conversation), but I think it is fair to say that you've then discovered that those aren't reasonable, interesting people to be talking to. What it does is make it impossible for party A to follow party B around, repeatedly calling their beliefs a sham (notice the follow around and repeatedly) and then defend their behavior as appropriate because their statements were truthful and couth (basically, being an ass and then standing on the ceremony of politeness). If you don't think the other participants are going to mostly be reasonable and that staff are going to be reasonable about dealing with mild complaints, don't attend!
      - vdaniuk 11y ago
        >If you don't think the other participants are going to mostly be reasonable and that staff are going to be reasonable about dealing with mild complaints, don't attend! This should be a wake up call for you to reconsider your position. "If you don't think the other participants are going to mostly be reasonable and that staff are going to be reasonable about dealing with mild complaints, don't attend!" Can you guess HN reaction to your comment if you would offer same advice to a woman in the context of "sexist, racist, or exclusionary jokes"?
- cp9 11y ago
  but this is a python convention, not a symposium on religion. Under what context would scientology even come up?
  - vdaniuk 11y ago
    Are you being daft? Lots of people will spend several days together on a cruise ship. They will get acquainted, exchange opinions, drink, have fun, socialize, discuss various topics they are interested in. Developers are human, you know, not some wet-ware apis limited to development/programming topics.

throwacc650 11y ago

> saying "don't yell racial epithets" and "don't tell women to make you a sandwich" is not even close to censorship. That's called being a decent person On paper, diversity and sensitivity is great. I'm a free market capitalist, but the communist manifesto is still the most just draft I've ever read. However, we don't live in a vacuum. BSD, perl, c, linux, python, you name it. These projects welcome all and always have. We dont need a code of conduct. We hate how you jinx our cooperation and success. By the way: Frankly my own black girlfriend loves cooking. I eat together with her family, and we tease each other all the time at the dinner table. Chicken, collared greens, Pepsi. I've never felt so loved. Instead of tucking my balls between my legs, we laughed like hyenas over wars between our races. Dad was like "gimme my damn food woman!!" Our dinner was on paper, racist. But our expression brought us closer, and its worth more than 160 characters. Political correctness is a pressure cooker strangling both our families' necks.