6 ms·

Uber is mercilessly commoditizing drivers and squeezing every last drop of blood from their veins. As the average income falls towards, and then through the pov

Uber is mercilessly commoditizing drivers and squeezing every last drop of blood from their veins. As the average income falls towards, and then through the poverty line, the number of people who say that taking an Uber is a more pleasant experience than taking a taxi will dry up. Clean, well-maintained cars and polite drivers that speak English well will become rarer and rarer. This would result in a collapse of Uber, except, of course, that the company is really betting on replacing its drivers with robots. The trick is to destroy the taxi industry before that happens. Because if self-driving taxis appeared on the market tomorrow, the existing taxi companies could make a comeback.

minot 11y ago
> polite drivers that speak English As a very infrequent taxi rider, as long as the driver can understand where I want to go and take me there safely, why do I care what language they speak? Am I missing something here?
- braythwayt 11y ago
  > as long as the driver can understand where I want to go and take me there safely If you read Uber's glowing reviews, people often praise the drivers for their ability to speak English well. I conclude that some people care, whether you or I think it's important or not.
  - brudgers 11y ago
    I missed that mind and I'm glad you're back.
- cowsandmilk 11y ago
  Regardless of your feelings, much of the initial buzz around Uber was that their drivers speak English.
- sokoloff 11y ago
  When I travel abroad, I have to admit a strong preference for taxi drivers who speak passable English. In that case, it's a functional benefit (confidence that I've communicated my destination correctly, ability to ask where an ATM or late-night restaurant is, ability to sort out a credit card/payment issue, etc). And of course, there is an element of subsurface tribalism (people like to be with people like them) that makes people prefer a hired driver who is like them, whether that's in language/accent, skin color, or any other dimension. It's not necessarily/fully racist per-se, but it's a tiny bit down that spectrum. I suspect this is at least part of Uber's appeal-you get a driver who is "more like me" and that's comforting to many (most?).
  - joeguilmette 11y ago
    Living abroad, I take Uber over taxis for just this reason. It's not that Uber drivers speak English here, it's that I don't care if they do because we don't need to talk about where I'm going.
    - foldr 11y ago
      If you live abroad, couldn't you just learn enough of the local language to tell the taxi driver where you want to go? Usually, just being able to pronounce the name of the destination would be sufficient. I really don't get why a taxi driver's English would be an issue. You don't have to have a conversation with them.
- eevilspock 11y ago
  You're not missing a thing. Inequity in opportunity and segregation live on through ignorance and a cultural lack of empathy. Pleasant white and native English-speaking staff in the front of the house, brown and struggling to get a foothold types washing dishes in the back, because that's what makes customers feel better. The privileged get more privilege, and the poor get poorer.
  - mc32 11y ago
    I don't think this is an American only thing. You see the same in Europe with respect to Eastern european immigrants who don't speak the local language well. You also presume people would be uncomfortable with either native English speakers of either Hispanic of African ancestry --which for the great majority of people would not be an issue. Also, not only white English speakers take uber. Personally I think those commenters prefer not having to repeat or ask the the driver to repeat what they are trying to get across. Imagine moving to China, you a polish speaker with little Chinese fluency, and try to make a living as a taxi driver. See how well you compete with people who speak Chinese natively.
    - eevilspock 11y ago
      I appreciate your reasonable and thoughtful counterpoint, unlike bill's malarky. My presumption is not true for all people, but it is true for a great great many. I think you vastly underestimate the amount of prejudice that exists, from the overt "I don't like people of other colors, gender or sexual orientation" to the subtle but insidious "I am not prejudice, but I just feel more comfortable sitting next to a person of the same color on the bus." A Yale Law Journal study found that "Black taxi drivers' tips averaged 33 percent lower than those received by White drivers."[1] In this day and age of GPS navigation (It's built into the driver's Uber app!), you don't need to be even close to a native speaker to exchange destination information. And if Uber the company cared enough, they could make it even easier by allowing riders to enter their destination into the app on their phone. Uber wouldn't have to reveal it to the driver until the driver accepts the trip. A agree it's not just an American thing. In rare cases it works in reverse. I lived in Taiwan for about 5 years. There and in China, an American taxi driver would be such a novelty or even celebrity they would be in great demand. All I'm saying is that for the world to get better, we need to actively work against the Matthew effect[2]. [1] Blindspot: Hidden Biases of Good People, by Mahzarin R. Banaji, Anthony G. Greenwald. (2013) [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_effect. The Matthew effect is pervasive, even among scientists: http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/merton/matthew1.pdf http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/merton/matthew1.pdf
slayed0 11y ago
It's already rare in San Francisco. The only difference now between taking a taxi vs uber is convenience and price. Those are admittedly huge factors, but without the clean vehicles and personable drivers they started out with, my brand loyalty for uber is gone. Lyft seems to have good intentions in this regard so I've been using them exclusively for the last few months. We'll see if they can keep it up.
- pki 11y ago
  I take uber/lyft/whatever other startup is popping up, over a taxi in SF because I've had so many bad experiences in "traditional" taxis here I can honestly no longer give them a chance anymore. Lying about not accepting cards, refusing me because of where I'm going, threatening me when I ask to use a card, threatening me for a tip, taking 2-3 hours to arrive (if even that). At least the alternative actually gets here, and doesn't attempt to drive circles to run up mileage. I'm not white and I don't care about English, I just want something that isn't trying to scam me: with the startups, I can dispute the charges if any, I have some form of trail in case of problems, and as it's emailed to me they can't just destroy their copy and say nothing happened. None of that exists with a traditional taxi.
  - technofiend 11y ago
    What sold me on Uber/Lyft (back when Lyft was still in Houston) was the fact they'd reliably show up when called. Sure, I live in a sketchy neighborhood that's gentrifying, sure I may need a ride at an ungodly hour to the airport (4-6am) but if you agree to come and then don't show... I hacked taxi rides by having my wife drive me to the closest hotel and then making the driver take me home for my wife and our luggage. But yeah the second I could switch I did. They brought it on themselves.
    - pki 11y ago
      Yeah, I'm in the same neighborhood situation and it's pretty much a random dice roll whether they'll actually come or not. Meanwhile, an alternative that consistently arrives? What great bare minimum standards-meeting! I can't believe "arrives when called" is apparently a problem. Especially for things like flights, there's really nothing like them saying they'll come and then not showing up, which makes meeting flight times extremely fun.
jusben1369 11y ago
"Uber is mercilessly commoditizing drivers and squeezing every last drop of blood from their veins." Hyperbole much? Reading the article it's pretty obvious that Uber is trying to solve for a particular problem: Drivers who sign up and only work a few and the best hours to maximize their income. Uber is indicating they want to reward loyal longer hour drivers over the Friday and Saturday night 4 hour prime time put $200 in their pocket driver.
- braythwayt 11y ago
  I don't think we have any basis for disagreement. I say Uber wants to commoditize its drivers. You quote the article saying that Uber doesn't want its drivers maximizing their income per hour of driving.
  - jusben1369 11y ago
    I think the key here is that Uber is no longer treating all drivers equally. It's differentiating based on your loyalty and hours spent as a driver. In the long run they will adopt self driving cars. So will FedEx and the Post Office though and we're not demonizing them.
billmalarky 11y ago
I've personally noticed a significant drop in Uber quality in NYC. I recall a year or so ago Uber blew taxis out of the water in overall service quality. Now most of the time the driver relies heavily on their GPS which doesn't work that well in NYC so you end up taking noticeably longer to get to your destination than a professional driver that really knows the city. In addition, the quality of drivers has plummeted. Half the time it seems like I'm being driven around by someone who just got their license, which can be nerve racking in the mid-west let alone NYC. Pretty much the only thing Uber still has going for them is it "feels" safer to take Uber than a random taxi according to my girlfriend.
- Nicholas_C 11y ago
  I've noticed the same in Dallas as well. The cars, although technically newer than '06 or '07 as Uber requires, have gotten shittier and the drivers have gotten shadier.
  - prostoalex 11y ago
    Make year requirement is one of those things that are supposed to make you feel safe, warm and and fuzzy, but are meaningless. Everybody else in the industry and consumer space uses mileage for a good reason - a 2007 vehicle with 450,000 miles on it is hardly new or safe. While this mileage is atypical of average consumer car, any vehicle retired from police or taxi service is likely to be in that range.
- prostoalex 11y ago
  The argument that Slate and Pando led against Uber, and which the company denies, is that there's a high churn among drivers. The initial numbers quoted in the ads look good, so people sign up, but after calculating their total income 6-9 months down the road, and incorporating maintenance, gas, wear & tear of the vehicles as well as downtime, the numbers don't look as appealing. Those same numbers are pretty hard to predict beforehand, since you don't know what kind of mileage you'll be putting on the car (and a car nearing 25k requires different maintenance work than a car nearing 100k or 200k miles) as well as the quantity and quality of trips (e.g. a drop-off to a remote suburban neighborhood, where you have a zero chance of finding another customer vs quick-and-easy airport runs). Insurance is also pesky if your mileage is suddenly 3x-4x compared to the same period last year - sometimes they won't even mention "commercial transportation", but raise the rate exorbitantly to gently push you to a competitor.
invisiblec0w 11y ago
I disagree withe the "merciless" assessment of the Uber situation. With some hands on experience in the NYC taxi industry and son of a life long cabbie, I'd argue Uber/Lyft has made things better for both drivers and customers. The standard cut for traditional car service in NYC has been 33%. Not to mention any promotional coupons were also deducted from drivers sub-total. This was standard before Green Taxi, Uber and Lyft etc. This is on top of soul killing idle hours for car service drivers because they had to stay in the city to be eligible for the next job. A NYC yellow cab driver pays in $700+ gas weekly thanks to mafia like tactics of cab medallion owning ventures. That's a whole set of debate that I won't divulge.
gclaramunt 11y ago
> The trick is to destroy the taxi industry before that happens. Because if self-driving taxis appeared on the market tomorrow, the existing taxi companies could make a comeback. That's evil enough to make sense and be close to the truth

minot 11y ago

> polite drivers that speak English As a very infrequent taxi rider, as long as the driver can understand where I want to go and take me there safely, why do I care what language they speak? Am I missing something here?

braythwayt 11y ago
> as long as the driver can understand where I want to go and take me there safely If you read Uber's glowing reviews, people often praise the drivers for their ability to speak English well. I conclude that some people care, whether you or I think it's important or not.
- brudgers 11y ago
  I missed that mind and I'm glad you're back.
cowsandmilk 11y ago
Regardless of your feelings, much of the initial buzz around Uber was that their drivers speak English.
sokoloff 11y ago
When I travel abroad, I have to admit a strong preference for taxi drivers who speak passable English. In that case, it's a functional benefit (confidence that I've communicated my destination correctly, ability to ask where an ATM or late-night restaurant is, ability to sort out a credit card/payment issue, etc). And of course, there is an element of subsurface tribalism (people like to be with people like them) that makes people prefer a hired driver who is like them, whether that's in language/accent, skin color, or any other dimension. It's not necessarily/fully racist per-se, but it's a tiny bit down that spectrum. I suspect this is at least part of Uber's appeal-you get a driver who is "more like me" and that's comforting to many (most?).
- joeguilmette 11y ago
  Living abroad, I take Uber over taxis for just this reason. It's not that Uber drivers speak English here, it's that I don't care if they do because we don't need to talk about where I'm going.
  - foldr 11y ago
    If you live abroad, couldn't you just learn enough of the local language to tell the taxi driver where you want to go? Usually, just being able to pronounce the name of the destination would be sufficient. I really don't get why a taxi driver's English would be an issue. You don't have to have a conversation with them.
eevilspock 11y ago
You're not missing a thing. Inequity in opportunity and segregation live on through ignorance and a cultural lack of empathy. Pleasant white and native English-speaking staff in the front of the house, brown and struggling to get a foothold types washing dishes in the back, because that's what makes customers feel better. The privileged get more privilege, and the poor get poorer.
- mc32 11y ago
  I don't think this is an American only thing. You see the same in Europe with respect to Eastern european immigrants who don't speak the local language well. You also presume people would be uncomfortable with either native English speakers of either Hispanic of African ancestry --which for the great majority of people would not be an issue. Also, not only white English speakers take uber. Personally I think those commenters prefer not having to repeat or ask the the driver to repeat what they are trying to get across. Imagine moving to China, you a polish speaker with little Chinese fluency, and try to make a living as a taxi driver. See how well you compete with people who speak Chinese natively.
  - eevilspock 11y ago
    I appreciate your reasonable and thoughtful counterpoint, unlike bill's malarky. My presumption is not true for all people, but it is true for a great great many. I think you vastly underestimate the amount of prejudice that exists, from the overt "I don't like people of other colors, gender or sexual orientation" to the subtle but insidious "I am not prejudice, but I just feel more comfortable sitting next to a person of the same color on the bus." A Yale Law Journal study found that "Black taxi drivers' tips averaged 33 percent lower than those received by White drivers."[1] In this day and age of GPS navigation (It's built into the driver's Uber app!), you don't need to be even close to a native speaker to exchange destination information. And if Uber the company cared enough, they could make it even easier by allowing riders to enter their destination into the app on their phone. Uber wouldn't have to reveal it to the driver until the driver accepts the trip. A agree it's not just an American thing. In rare cases it works in reverse. I lived in Taiwan for about 5 years. There and in China, an American taxi driver would be such a novelty or even celebrity they would be in great demand. All I'm saying is that for the world to get better, we need to actively work against the Matthew effect[2]. [1] Blindspot: Hidden Biases of Good People, by Mahzarin R. Banaji, Anthony G. Greenwald. (2013) [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_effect. The Matthew effect is pervasive, even among scientists: http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/merton/matthew1.pdf http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/merton/matthew1.pdf

slayed0 11y ago

It's already rare in San Francisco. The only difference now between taking a taxi vs uber is convenience and price. Those are admittedly huge factors, but without the clean vehicles and personable drivers they started out with, my brand loyalty for uber is gone. Lyft seems to have good intentions in this regard so I've been using them exclusively for the last few months. We'll see if they can keep it up.

pki 11y ago
I take uber/lyft/whatever other startup is popping up, over a taxi in SF because I've had so many bad experiences in "traditional" taxis here I can honestly no longer give them a chance anymore. Lying about not accepting cards, refusing me because of where I'm going, threatening me when I ask to use a card, threatening me for a tip, taking 2-3 hours to arrive (if even that). At least the alternative actually gets here, and doesn't attempt to drive circles to run up mileage. I'm not white and I don't care about English, I just want something that isn't trying to scam me: with the startups, I can dispute the charges if any, I have some form of trail in case of problems, and as it's emailed to me they can't just destroy their copy and say nothing happened. None of that exists with a traditional taxi.
- technofiend 11y ago
  What sold me on Uber/Lyft (back when Lyft was still in Houston) was the fact they'd reliably show up when called. Sure, I live in a sketchy neighborhood that's gentrifying, sure I may need a ride at an ungodly hour to the airport (4-6am) but if you agree to come and then don't show... I hacked taxi rides by having my wife drive me to the closest hotel and then making the driver take me home for my wife and our luggage. But yeah the second I could switch I did. They brought it on themselves.
  - pki 11y ago
    Yeah, I'm in the same neighborhood situation and it's pretty much a random dice roll whether they'll actually come or not. Meanwhile, an alternative that consistently arrives? What great bare minimum standards-meeting! I can't believe "arrives when called" is apparently a problem. Especially for things like flights, there's really nothing like them saying they'll come and then not showing up, which makes meeting flight times extremely fun.

jusben1369 11y ago

"Uber is mercilessly commoditizing drivers and squeezing every last drop of blood from their veins." Hyperbole much? Reading the article it's pretty obvious that Uber is trying to solve for a particular problem: Drivers who sign up and only work a few and the best hours to maximize their income. Uber is indicating they want to reward loyal longer hour drivers over the Friday and Saturday night 4 hour prime time put $200 in their pocket driver.

braythwayt 11y ago
I don't think we have any basis for disagreement. I say Uber wants to commoditize its drivers. You quote the article saying that Uber doesn't want its drivers maximizing their income per hour of driving.
- jusben1369 11y ago
  I think the key here is that Uber is no longer treating all drivers equally. It's differentiating based on your loyalty and hours spent as a driver. In the long run they will adopt self driving cars. So will FedEx and the Post Office though and we're not demonizing them.

billmalarky 11y ago

I've personally noticed a significant drop in Uber quality in NYC. I recall a year or so ago Uber blew taxis out of the water in overall service quality. Now most of the time the driver relies heavily on their GPS which doesn't work that well in NYC so you end up taking noticeably longer to get to your destination than a professional driver that really knows the city. In addition, the quality of drivers has plummeted. Half the time it seems like I'm being driven around by someone who just got their license, which can be nerve racking in the mid-west let alone NYC. Pretty much the only thing Uber still has going for them is it "feels" safer to take Uber than a random taxi according to my girlfriend.

Nicholas_C 11y ago
I've noticed the same in Dallas as well. The cars, although technically newer than '06 or '07 as Uber requires, have gotten shittier and the drivers have gotten shadier.
- prostoalex 11y ago
  Make year requirement is one of those things that are supposed to make you feel safe, warm and and fuzzy, but are meaningless. Everybody else in the industry and consumer space uses mileage for a good reason - a 2007 vehicle with 450,000 miles on it is hardly new or safe. While this mileage is atypical of average consumer car, any vehicle retired from police or taxi service is likely to be in that range.
prostoalex 11y ago
The argument that Slate and Pando led against Uber, and which the company denies, is that there's a high churn among drivers. The initial numbers quoted in the ads look good, so people sign up, but after calculating their total income 6-9 months down the road, and incorporating maintenance, gas, wear & tear of the vehicles as well as downtime, the numbers don't look as appealing. Those same numbers are pretty hard to predict beforehand, since you don't know what kind of mileage you'll be putting on the car (and a car nearing 25k requires different maintenance work than a car nearing 100k or 200k miles) as well as the quantity and quality of trips (e.g. a drop-off to a remote suburban neighborhood, where you have a zero chance of finding another customer vs quick-and-easy airport runs). Insurance is also pesky if your mileage is suddenly 3x-4x compared to the same period last year - sometimes they won't even mention "commercial transportation", but raise the rate exorbitantly to gently push you to a competitor.

invisiblec0w 11y ago

I disagree withe the "merciless" assessment of the Uber situation. With some hands on experience in the NYC taxi industry and son of a life long cabbie, I'd argue Uber/Lyft has made things better for both drivers and customers. The standard cut for traditional car service in NYC has been 33%. Not to mention any promotional coupons were also deducted from drivers sub-total. This was standard before Green Taxi, Uber and Lyft etc. This is on top of soul killing idle hours for car service drivers because they had to stay in the city to be eligible for the next job. A NYC yellow cab driver pays in $700+ gas weekly thanks to mafia like tactics of cab medallion owning ventures. That's a whole set of debate that I won't divulge.

gclaramunt 11y ago

> The trick is to destroy the taxi industry before that happens. Because if self-driving taxis appeared on the market tomorrow, the existing taxi companies could make a comeback. That's evil enough to make sense and be close to the truth