5 ms·

Hmmm - I read in one of your comments that you're just graduating. Does that mean you haven't done any industry coding work? If so, I'm not sure that it's a gre

by aidos 11y ago

Hmmm - I read in one of your comments that you're just graduating. Does that mean you haven't done any industry coding work? If so, I'm not sure that it's a great idea to jump straight into contracting. You learn a lot in the first year or two on a job. Looking at it from a hiring position I would never take on an inexperienced dev on a contract (no offence, you may be great). Junior positions are like an apprenticeship; you know you're sinking time into someone but are hoping that over time they'll start providing value. Contractors are generally expected to have experience and, accordingly, they cost more. If you've spent a bit of time at a job (2 years is a fairly normal time to leave) there are a couple of tricks you could try that worked for me. A) Tell them you're leaving but you're available for contract work. You're a known quantity, you know their systems/products and can work efficiently when they need the extra resources. They will send you work (and some will just take you back on a contract straight away - that's how I started contracting). B) If you've worked at an agency, ask to take some of their clients. It might sound insane, but every agency has clients they don't really want. Small clients that have been around for a while that they still need to service. That work is just unprofitable noise as an agency grows bigger. As a one-man-band it's perfect. The client is used to paying agency rates and with you they get personal service from the person who was doing their dev work anyway. I have clients from this arrangement that have been amazing. Hope that helps in some small way.

k__ 11y ago
This. I only did it because I worked as a developer on the side for the 4 years of my CS studies.
stevelaz 11y ago
I can't agree more with this! I followed option A in my career. I quit, went back to school to finish my degree and worked part time as a contractor for enough money to maintain my mortgage while in school. Anyway, it is very important to learn to work closely with a team. It is also VERY important that you work with people that are SMARTER than you. IMHO, this is the best way to get proper mentor-ship and motivation to learn. I personally try to surround myself with people that are smarter than me. Once you think that you know "everything" or that you're the smartest person in the room, it's time to change jobs. Because: A) People won't like working with you B) You'll stop learning new things since you already know everything. update: spacing edits...
- franciscop 11y ago
  > A) People won't like working with you ? Why is this? If enough people follow the "work with people that are SMARTER than you", which I think it's really important and I hope a significant number of people follow, why wouldn't they like working with you?
  - stevelaz 11y ago
    It's when you start to think you know everything that people don't like to work with you. I haven't met that many people in my software career ~15yrs that have enjoyed working with a know-it-all. You can of course be super smart at your job and know a TON, but when you start acting cocky and like you know everything it usually doesn't end well.
    - jqm 11y ago
      I can tolerate know-it-alls when they really do know a lot more about something than I do and are willing to share. However in my experience, the majority of people with a know-it-all attitude are simply blowing hot air and trying to cover for the fact that they really aren't nearly as smart or knowledgeable as they would like to be. Most truly smart and knowledgeable people I've met have been amazingly humble and usually fairly quiet about things. The qualities of quietness and humility lead to learning.
  - davemel37 11y ago
    Thinking you know everything is a definitive sign that you do not! One of the first lessons you learn from experience is that what you thought would happen, doesn't. In other terms, you have cognitive biases, emotional biases, and filters your brain uses as information you process goes from perception to short term memory to long term memory...and lots of things get lost in the process. If someone isn't smart enough to realize his perception of what he knows is colored and influeneced by things outside his control...he probably hasnt had even close to enough experience to be humbled. Don't be that guy!
    - 11y ago
haack 11y ago
Thanks, that's really useful! What about having done a few internships? I realise it's not the same but I've at least made some mistakes to learn from already. I'm starting a job in September, contracting would just be something to fund my personal projects.
- aidos 11y ago
  Having the internships obviously helps. Have you just had a look around on jobserve.co.uk? You might find something suitable. In terms of applying for contracts a lot of it (unfortunately) still goes through recruiters. My advice would be to look at the buzz words in the ad and to change your cv to put all of those at the top. Recruiters see that and think you're the perfect candidate. That will normally get you an interview.
mrnaught 11y ago
"... accordingly, they cost more." I disagree with this. Contractors pay a significant price by leaving a full time job. No benefits, no company sponsored talks,training, no paid time off. The extra buck you make contracting is not extra.
- aidos 11y ago
  That's very true. And with full time staff there's also all the NI stuff to deal with (in the UK). Having said that, there's a general attitude from employers (at least everywhere I've worked) of "I'm paying this person £400 a day, they'd better be good." I've been on both sides, and from the employers side you're definitely willing to cut staff a lot more slack than contractors (though that may be totally irrational).
- aggieben 11y ago
  For people who have problems with innumeracy (and lacking a tax advisor's phone number, I guess) this can be a real problem. For the rest of us, it's not that hard to figure out what those things cost, add it to how much you want to make, and then divide by 2000 to figure out an hourly rate. The real price of contracting isn't the loss of benefits, but the increased burden of providing those things for yourself (if they were that important to you in the first place). The real reward is: freedom. You can provide any/all/none of those things for yourself as you see fit. All presuming you have work, of course ;-)
  - gknoy 11y ago
    I'm not a contractor, but wouldn't dividing by 2000 be a bit excessive? That would be 40 hours x 50 weeks, and everything I've read about contracting implies that you cannot bank on having constant work like that.
    - tonyarkles 11y ago
      I usually divide by 1,000 when I'm working out those numbers, to account for time spent finding clients, lulls, etc. Sometimes it's really nice to just take the afternoon off, and it's really nice when that's already factored into your rate.
hollerith 11y ago
Do "agencies" of the type referred to in parent (i.e., aidos's comment) exist in California?
- aidos 11y ago
  Probably. Sorry, little bit of a generic term but in particular I was thinking of web agencies - the kind that make glossy websites for other companies (or mobile apps, facebook promotions etc). Needn't be that sort of work. Could be embedded systems or whatever I suppose. All my experience is with web agencies. Really, any company that's doing project work for other companies. They'll often have long standing clients that they wouldn't mind handing over.

by aidos 11y ago

k__ 11y ago

This. I only did it because I worked as a developer on the side for the 4 years of my CS studies.

stevelaz 11y ago

I can't agree more with this! I followed option A in my career. I quit, went back to school to finish my degree and worked part time as a contractor for enough money to maintain my mortgage while in school. Anyway, it is very important to learn to work closely with a team. It is also VERY important that you work with people that are SMARTER than you. IMHO, this is the best way to get proper mentor-ship and motivation to learn. I personally try to surround myself with people that are smarter than me. Once you think that you know "everything" or that you're the smartest person in the room, it's time to change jobs. Because: A) People won't like working with you B) You'll stop learning new things since you already know everything. update: spacing edits...

franciscop 11y ago
> A) People won't like working with you ? Why is this? If enough people follow the "work with people that are SMARTER than you", which I think it's really important and I hope a significant number of people follow, why wouldn't they like working with you?
- stevelaz 11y ago
  It's when you start to think you know everything that people don't like to work with you. I haven't met that many people in my software career ~15yrs that have enjoyed working with a know-it-all. You can of course be super smart at your job and know a TON, but when you start acting cocky and like you know everything it usually doesn't end well.
  - jqm 11y ago
    I can tolerate know-it-alls when they really do know a lot more about something than I do and are willing to share. However in my experience, the majority of people with a know-it-all attitude are simply blowing hot air and trying to cover for the fact that they really aren't nearly as smart or knowledgeable as they would like to be. Most truly smart and knowledgeable people I've met have been amazingly humble and usually fairly quiet about things. The qualities of quietness and humility lead to learning.
- davemel37 11y ago
  Thinking you know everything is a definitive sign that you do not! One of the first lessons you learn from experience is that what you thought would happen, doesn't. In other terms, you have cognitive biases, emotional biases, and filters your brain uses as information you process goes from perception to short term memory to long term memory...and lots of things get lost in the process. If someone isn't smart enough to realize his perception of what he knows is colored and influeneced by things outside his control...he probably hasnt had even close to enough experience to be humbled. Don't be that guy!
  - 11y ago

haack 11y ago

Thanks, that's really useful! What about having done a few internships? I realise it's not the same but I've at least made some mistakes to learn from already. I'm starting a job in September, contracting would just be something to fund my personal projects.

aidos 11y ago
Having the internships obviously helps. Have you just had a look around on jobserve.co.uk? You might find something suitable. In terms of applying for contracts a lot of it (unfortunately) still goes through recruiters. My advice would be to look at the buzz words in the ad and to change your cv to put all of those at the top. Recruiters see that and think you're the perfect candidate. That will normally get you an interview.

mrnaught 11y ago

"... accordingly, they cost more." I disagree with this. Contractors pay a significant price by leaving a full time job. No benefits, no company sponsored talks,training, no paid time off. The extra buck you make contracting is not extra.

aidos 11y ago
That's very true. And with full time staff there's also all the NI stuff to deal with (in the UK). Having said that, there's a general attitude from employers (at least everywhere I've worked) of "I'm paying this person £400 a day, they'd better be good." I've been on both sides, and from the employers side you're definitely willing to cut staff a lot more slack than contractors (though that may be totally irrational).
aggieben 11y ago
For people who have problems with innumeracy (and lacking a tax advisor's phone number, I guess) this can be a real problem. For the rest of us, it's not that hard to figure out what those things cost, add it to how much you want to make, and then divide by 2000 to figure out an hourly rate. The real price of contracting isn't the loss of benefits, but the increased burden of providing those things for yourself (if they were that important to you in the first place). The real reward is: freedom. You can provide any/all/none of those things for yourself as you see fit. All presuming you have work, of course ;-)
- gknoy 11y ago
  I'm not a contractor, but wouldn't dividing by 2000 be a bit excessive? That would be 40 hours x 50 weeks, and everything I've read about contracting implies that you cannot bank on having constant work like that.
  - tonyarkles 11y ago
    I usually divide by 1,000 when I'm working out those numbers, to account for time spent finding clients, lulls, etc. Sometimes it's really nice to just take the afternoon off, and it's really nice when that's already factored into your rate.

hollerith 11y ago

Do "agencies" of the type referred to in parent (i.e., aidos's comment) exist in California?

aidos 11y ago
Probably. Sorry, little bit of a generic term but in particular I was thinking of web agencies - the kind that make glossy websites for other companies (or mobile apps, facebook promotions etc). Needn't be that sort of work. Could be embedded systems or whatever I suppose. All my experience is with web agencies. Really, any company that's doing project work for other companies. They'll often have long standing clients that they wouldn't mind handing over.