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It's nice to see Stripe coming here, but I wonder how much demand there really is for it. Many (Japanese) people I know would rather stick to bank transfers and

It's nice to see Stripe coming here, but I wonder how much demand there really is for it. Many (Japanese) people I know would rather stick to bank transfers and payment at convenience stores than use credit cards. All of our company-to-company business is handled with bank transfers. The only reason we have a credit card is for international transactions, I guess. On a semi-related side note, I saw Square out in the wild for the first time the other week -- I went to a newish bar and asked the owner if he took credit card; he said he'd bought something and would try it out with my card and it turned out to be Square's dongle, which I've seen in convenience stores here.

paulsutter 11y ago
The predominant use of credit cards in Japan is ecommerce / online, which is, of course, Stripe's target market. Japanese have on average 2.6 credit cards[1] and spend on average about $3000 a year on those cards. So yes, they're used less often than in the US but they have broad adoption. Japanese people often tell me that Japanese don't like to use credit cards. But ask them, do they have one? (of course! they say), do they use it online? (of course! they say). So it's true in real life, not just in this report. [1] https://www.j-credit.or.jp/en/reports/ https://www.j-credit.or.jp/en/reports/ EDIT: Ok, are you willing to predict failure for Stripe in Japan? Or do you just like being negative in a way that can't be tested? Their strategy seems sound to me, and I predict success.
- sdrothrock 11y ago
  > Japanese people have on average 2.6 credit cards[1] and spend on average about $3000 a year on those cards. So yes, they're used less often but they have broad adoption. I've never seen a really detailed report that drills down into where people use them. Most people I know with cards will use them (or are forced to use them) for internet/cell phone payments, then pay for anything they buy on their smartphone through the carrier payment system, which is all charged to the card at the end of the month. The phone and plan alone (not counting apps, shopping, etc.) would probably account for $1200 a year on a credit card, which is a significant percentage of the $3000 you're citing and that's not a chunk that Stripe could conceivably take since it's initiated in a real-world transaction at a store and used for e-commerce after that. I don't know a whole lot of people who actually go around putting their card numbers into sites, especially if they have Rakuten cards -- they just tend to stay in the little convenient walled garden and/or select convenience store or bank transfer payments. So there are a lot of entrenched "don't worry about it" payment systems that Japanese consumers have already bought into. > Ok, are you willing to predict failure for Stripe in Japan? Or do you just like being negative? I'm mostly wondering what Stripe plans to bring to the table in Japan. It's hard to get excited about another online payment processor when online payments here are way easier than I remember them ever being in America. I can order and pay cash for practically anything I want online without worrying about my credit card information being leaked, etc. If I don't want to pay cash for whatever reason, credit cards haven't been difficult to use online; Rakuten makes it just as easy as Amazon does, too. I don't think I've ever had an online shopping experience where I wished there were a simpler payment processor. I do almost all of my shopping online, so I'd imagine I'm one of the consumers that would potentially be using Stripe, but it's difficult for me to see exactly where it would make my life easier or better. At work, bank transfers are the de facto standard simply for traceability and ease of use. Edit: Put another way, one of the main problems with American companies trying to come into Japan is that they don't really know what Japan already has to offer or why Japanese people prefer things a certain way, and I'm curious about how Stripe intends to target Japan versus just bringing in an American product and hoping it takes off.
  - paulsutter 11y ago
    > I do almost all of my shopping online, ... it's difficult for me to see exactly where it would make my life easier or better. Early responses from web developers I know in Japan are a lot more enthusiastic. Which is, of course, their target customer.
  - markburns 11y ago
    Well I've not looked into it myself yet, but apparently payments are a nightmare to implement in Japan. As they were in the US/Europe before Stripe/Braintree etc came along. My opinion of what Stripe brings to the table in general is not so much that it is way better for the customer, but that it is way better for the retailer/developer. I have never heard people focusing on the customer side for payment providers etc. In that regard you are right, which customer cares about who/what is behind a payment form? But startups do care about simple painless payment integrations.
  - w00kie 11y ago
    > it's difficult for me to see exactly where it would make my life easier or better As a shopper it won't. Stripe is not targeted at shoppers but at website developers who want to implement credit card payments in a sane and easy way. As a user, you should not care whether the website is using Stripe or not (although their UX is usually nicer by default and their development guidelines help the implementation be more secure). The added value to you is that it is easy for the developer to implement credit card payments the right/secure way, therefore giving you more payment options.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - jeemusu 11y ago
      As a developer, I welcome this open armed. I've come into contact with several payment gateways (GMO/Econtext/F-regi) while working in Japan, and all of their API's have been an atrocity, with lackluster documentation.
- snogglethorpe 11y ago
  > Japanese people often tell me that Japanese don't like to use credit cards. But ask them, do they have one? (of course! they say), do they use it online? (of course! they say). So it's true in real life, not just in this report. Existing online services don't generally give you a lot of choice for payment. "No other choice" != "Like". Credit cards and bank transfers (which in Japan are very simple) have different strengths, but the one that sticks out for me is that a bank transfer keeps more control with the buyer, and exposes the buyer to less long-term risk: The service provider can steal your money by not providing the service, but they don't have any info they can use to steal money in the future.
  - w00kie 11y ago
    I would argue that you are usually covered by fraud insurance by default when paying with your credit which is probably not true of bank transfers.
    - snogglethorpe 11y ago
      Sure, but it's a different sort of protection, and although it's better in some ways (if you do things right, you can often get your money back for an existing transaction), it doesn't necessarily offer the same peace of mind as the more fundamental protection offered by a "push-only" system (bank transfers) compared to a "pull" system (credit cards). In particular, a common worry with credit cards is that if you use them often for small transactions, your info will eventually fall into the wrong hands and then all bets are off. In terms of peace-of-mind, there's a lot to be said for a system where payments are purely user-initiated... [Presumably some variants on credit-cards can increase the security, e.g. generating a temporary card number when your bank offers such a feature, but these may lose some of the convenience advantages that are credit-cards' main selling point...]
- mikekchar 11y ago
  It may actually be true that credit card use is predominantly online / ecommerce, but I have to say that this is not what I have experienced. My wife has a credit card and occasionally uses it for online purchases, but what we use it for mostly is: rent (really!), and cell phone. I was really surprised when we rented our flat lately that a credit card was necessary (possibly as a means to keep out foreigners like me who often don't have access to credit cards...) We could pay for the cell phone with cash, but it is easiest to get the initial contract if you have credit card. Then through laziness, it is easiest to continue to pay through the credit card. Most transactions that we do, even online, are cash based. Granted, we live in a small rural town, not Tokyo and I can believe that things are different there. The reason I replied to your message is not to be negative or to predict the failure of Stripe (I like Stripe quite a lot), but rather to point out that Japanese ways of doing business may be different than they are expecting. I hope they are successful, but I also hope that they temper their expectations.
anurag 11y ago
(I work at Stripe.) I'd think of Stripe as more than just credit card payments. We already accept bank transfers in private beta in the US and would obviously love to expand this to other countries once it's ready. That said, it turns out credit card payments make up 60% of online commerce in Japan [1], so we figured we'd start with that! [1] http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Consumers/Japan-credit-card-use-up-10-in-2014 http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Consumers/Japan-credit-card-...
- sdrothrock 11y ago
  > We already accept bank transfers in private beta in the US and would obviously love to expand this to other countries once it's ready. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on what Stripe would offer in Japan in terms of being a bank transfer mediator. Unlike the US, bank transfers here are very simple and routine -- you can perform them at almost any ATM or online, and providing that they're done within business hours, they're virtually instant. Setting up recurring transfers is also simple and routine.
  - greggman 11y ago
    They are also expensive. Usually $6 per transaction IIRC when I used to pay my rent.
    - withjive 11y ago
      Here in Thailand, instant bank transfers at any ATMs cost about 25 baht— roughly $0.75 USD per transaction. With such an easy method of sending money between people, it's extremely handy. Compared to what I'm used to in Canada, only thing that comes close is e-interac payments via email which is still a pain.
      - Symbiote 11y ago
        That still seems expensive to me, since such transfers are free for personal customers in the UK. Looking at the business charges at Barclay's, the transfer is either 35p ($0.55) or free, depending on the account.
shioyama 11y ago
There are other developer-friendly options that handle offline payment methods in Japan (bank transfer, konbini, payeasy), e.g. Komoju: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27368278/payment-gateways-processors-for-japanese-konbini-convenience-store-payments#answer-28558075 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27368278/payment-gateway...
cperciva 11y ago
I wonder how much demand there really is for it. Many (Japanese) people I know would rather stick to bank transfers Even if that's correct... you're talking about how Japanese people like to pay for things. Stripe entering Japan isn't about allowing people in Japan to pay for things using credit cards; it's about allowing people in Japan to get paid using credit cards. Sure, Japanese companies will have a higher proportion of Japanese customers, but this will be important if they have any customers from outside of Japan.

paulsutter 11y ago

The predominant use of credit cards in Japan is ecommerce / online, which is, of course, Stripe's target market. Japanese have on average 2.6 credit cards[1] and spend on average about $3000 a year on those cards. So yes, they're used less often than in the US but they have broad adoption. Japanese people often tell me that Japanese don't like to use credit cards. But ask them, do they have one? (of course! they say), do they use it online? (of course! they say). So it's true in real life, not just in this report. [1] https://www.j-credit.or.jp/en/reports/ https://www.j-credit.or.jp/en/reports/ EDIT: Ok, are you willing to predict failure for Stripe in Japan? Or do you just like being negative in a way that can't be tested? Their strategy seems sound to me, and I predict success.

sdrothrock 11y ago
> Japanese people have on average 2.6 credit cards[1] and spend on average about $3000 a year on those cards. So yes, they're used less often but they have broad adoption. I've never seen a really detailed report that drills down into where people use them. Most people I know with cards will use them (or are forced to use them) for internet/cell phone payments, then pay for anything they buy on their smartphone through the carrier payment system, which is all charged to the card at the end of the month. The phone and plan alone (not counting apps, shopping, etc.) would probably account for $1200 a year on a credit card, which is a significant percentage of the $3000 you're citing and that's not a chunk that Stripe could conceivably take since it's initiated in a real-world transaction at a store and used for e-commerce after that. I don't know a whole lot of people who actually go around putting their card numbers into sites, especially if they have Rakuten cards -- they just tend to stay in the little convenient walled garden and/or select convenience store or bank transfer payments. So there are a lot of entrenched "don't worry about it" payment systems that Japanese consumers have already bought into. > Ok, are you willing to predict failure for Stripe in Japan? Or do you just like being negative? I'm mostly wondering what Stripe plans to bring to the table in Japan. It's hard to get excited about another online payment processor when online payments here are way easier than I remember them ever being in America. I can order and pay cash for practically anything I want online without worrying about my credit card information being leaked, etc. If I don't want to pay cash for whatever reason, credit cards haven't been difficult to use online; Rakuten makes it just as easy as Amazon does, too. I don't think I've ever had an online shopping experience where I wished there were a simpler payment processor. I do almost all of my shopping online, so I'd imagine I'm one of the consumers that would potentially be using Stripe, but it's difficult for me to see exactly where it would make my life easier or better. At work, bank transfers are the de facto standard simply for traceability and ease of use. Edit: Put another way, one of the main problems with American companies trying to come into Japan is that they don't really know what Japan already has to offer or why Japanese people prefer things a certain way, and I'm curious about how Stripe intends to target Japan versus just bringing in an American product and hoping it takes off.
- paulsutter 11y ago
  > I do almost all of my shopping online, ... it's difficult for me to see exactly where it would make my life easier or better. Early responses from web developers I know in Japan are a lot more enthusiastic. Which is, of course, their target customer.
- markburns 11y ago
  Well I've not looked into it myself yet, but apparently payments are a nightmare to implement in Japan. As they were in the US/Europe before Stripe/Braintree etc came along. My opinion of what Stripe brings to the table in general is not so much that it is way better for the customer, but that it is way better for the retailer/developer. I have never heard people focusing on the customer side for payment providers etc. In that regard you are right, which customer cares about who/what is behind a payment form? But startups do care about simple painless payment integrations.
- w00kie 11y ago
  > it's difficult for me to see exactly where it would make my life easier or better As a shopper it won't. Stripe is not targeted at shoppers but at website developers who want to implement credit card payments in a sane and easy way. As a user, you should not care whether the website is using Stripe or not (although their UX is usually nicer by default and their development guidelines help the implementation be more secure). The added value to you is that it is easy for the developer to implement credit card payments the right/secure way, therefore giving you more payment options.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - jeemusu 11y ago
    As a developer, I welcome this open armed. I've come into contact with several payment gateways (GMO/Econtext/F-regi) while working in Japan, and all of their API's have been an atrocity, with lackluster documentation.
snogglethorpe 11y ago
> Japanese people often tell me that Japanese don't like to use credit cards. But ask them, do they have one? (of course! they say), do they use it online? (of course! they say). So it's true in real life, not just in this report. Existing online services don't generally give you a lot of choice for payment. "No other choice" != "Like". Credit cards and bank transfers (which in Japan are very simple) have different strengths, but the one that sticks out for me is that a bank transfer keeps more control with the buyer, and exposes the buyer to less long-term risk: The service provider can steal your money by not providing the service, but they don't have any info they can use to steal money in the future.
- w00kie 11y ago
  I would argue that you are usually covered by fraud insurance by default when paying with your credit which is probably not true of bank transfers.
  - snogglethorpe 11y ago
    Sure, but it's a different sort of protection, and although it's better in some ways (if you do things right, you can often get your money back for an existing transaction), it doesn't necessarily offer the same peace of mind as the more fundamental protection offered by a "push-only" system (bank transfers) compared to a "pull" system (credit cards). In particular, a common worry with credit cards is that if you use them often for small transactions, your info will eventually fall into the wrong hands and then all bets are off. In terms of peace-of-mind, there's a lot to be said for a system where payments are purely user-initiated... [Presumably some variants on credit-cards can increase the security, e.g. generating a temporary card number when your bank offers such a feature, but these may lose some of the convenience advantages that are credit-cards' main selling point...]
mikekchar 11y ago
It may actually be true that credit card use is predominantly online / ecommerce, but I have to say that this is not what I have experienced. My wife has a credit card and occasionally uses it for online purchases, but what we use it for mostly is: rent (really!), and cell phone. I was really surprised when we rented our flat lately that a credit card was necessary (possibly as a means to keep out foreigners like me who often don't have access to credit cards...) We could pay for the cell phone with cash, but it is easiest to get the initial contract if you have credit card. Then through laziness, it is easiest to continue to pay through the credit card. Most transactions that we do, even online, are cash based. Granted, we live in a small rural town, not Tokyo and I can believe that things are different there. The reason I replied to your message is not to be negative or to predict the failure of Stripe (I like Stripe quite a lot), but rather to point out that Japanese ways of doing business may be different than they are expecting. I hope they are successful, but I also hope that they temper their expectations.

anurag 11y ago

(I work at Stripe.) I'd think of Stripe as more than just credit card payments. We already accept bank transfers in private beta in the US and would obviously love to expand this to other countries once it's ready. That said, it turns out credit card payments make up 60% of online commerce in Japan [1], so we figured we'd start with that! [1] http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Consumers/Japan-credit-card-use-up-10-in-2014 http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Consumers/Japan-credit-card-...

sdrothrock 11y ago
> We already accept bank transfers in private beta in the US and would obviously love to expand this to other countries once it's ready. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on what Stripe would offer in Japan in terms of being a bank transfer mediator. Unlike the US, bank transfers here are very simple and routine -- you can perform them at almost any ATM or online, and providing that they're done within business hours, they're virtually instant. Setting up recurring transfers is also simple and routine.
- greggman 11y ago
  They are also expensive. Usually $6 per transaction IIRC when I used to pay my rent.
  - withjive 11y ago
    Here in Thailand, instant bank transfers at any ATMs cost about 25 baht— roughly $0.75 USD per transaction. With such an easy method of sending money between people, it's extremely handy. Compared to what I'm used to in Canada, only thing that comes close is e-interac payments via email which is still a pain.
    - Symbiote 11y ago
      That still seems expensive to me, since such transfers are free for personal customers in the UK. Looking at the business charges at Barclay's, the transfer is either 35p ($0.55) or free, depending on the account.

shioyama 11y ago

There are other developer-friendly options that handle offline payment methods in Japan (bank transfer, konbini, payeasy), e.g. Komoju: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27368278/payment-gateways-processors-for-japanese-konbini-convenience-store-payments#answer-28558075 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27368278/payment-gateway...

cperciva 11y ago

I wonder how much demand there really is for it. Many (Japanese) people I know would rather stick to bank transfers Even if that's correct... you're talking about how Japanese people like to pay for things. Stripe entering Japan isn't about allowing people in Japan to pay for things using credit cards; it's about allowing people in Japan to get paid using credit cards. Sure, Japanese companies will have a higher proportion of Japanese customers, but this will be important if they have any customers from outside of Japan.